(no subject)

[oyceter]

ginmar's last few posts in general make me feel very queasy and very angry that I am female. I hate that I have to think about this, that I worry about walking outside when it's dark and I'm alone but my boyfriend doesn't. I hate that people I knew at college laughed at the Take Back the Night marches and thought they were unnecessary and quoted the same kinds of statistics on male rape or females lying about being raped (ala Disclosure, stupid ass book). I hate that I feel nidgy and frightened whenever a strange man talks to me, even if he's just being friendly. I hate that I feel almost physically threatened when men invade my personal space. I also hate that my mom tells stories of people being raped to make sure I am more careful, that my sister sometimes blames unwelcome attention from guys on herself being "too friendly." I hate that when she does that, my mom substantiates it and says my sister should be more careful who she smiles to, because people could get the wrong impression.

I hate that this fear has power over my life just because I am female.

Comments

[angeyja.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Oyce have you ever thought about taking a self defense class? I ask because I was in a situation whne I was your age wherein someone I knew well was trying to choke me. It wasn't rape; it was consensual, at least initially. Successfully getting out of that changed me. Classes aren't the same thing but they may help you learn how to deal with potentially dangerous situations, and feel better about this.

I'm not a fan of seeking trouble (although there were times I did when I was young--I was a little wild) and I believe it's a real fallacy to think that you can avoid trouble by your behavior. I see it as a part of the tendency to blame the victim, and a theory that assumes perfect choices and a degree of control that isn't a good match with reality. I also don't believe that any of can achieve perfect protection. We can take disturbing feelings and if it's apt use those a springboard to try to achieve personal or social change, and then learning to deal with the balance, living in a world of uncertainty, is the other and sometimes more difficult piece.

Not easy stuff. *smile*

[ann1962]

Yes her posts are provoking. I read her randomly. All women feel the way you do about their safety. But many laugh instead of feel the fear because they are sailing along the Nile enjoying the architecture rather than realizing it can happen to them. I worked at a rape crisis center when I was in college because I was so moved by the suffering of so many. Hassled way to much as a teenage and I, like you, was angry. This discussion of men getting raped and its numbers seem only to be popular on LJ. Other than one book, is it being discussed in popular culture? Men do get raped. Usually by men. Boys get raped as well. People get raped. I think women fear it more then men, but I would guess the fear of prison rape would be the first thing to come to mind when a man is sent to jail.

We all need to be careful, but most women are safer on the streets with strangers then they are in their own homes. To me, this is the worst crime. The fathers, son, grandfathers, uncles, step fathers, neighbours are the perpetrators of most rapes. This is why the focus is on stranger rape. It is too horrible to open "family" doors and see the brutality behind them. But I am glad Ginmar is discussing this. Interesting that it is a focus especially since she is in the middle of a war. Violence reveals violence.

My story

[bhadrasvapna.livejournal.com]

There are three books I think everyone on the planet should read. One of them is The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals that Protect Us From Violence by Gavin DeBecker. Parents will also want to read Protecting the Gift which helps us teach our children about this.

You aren't helpless and that fear will actually protect you. "True fear is a gift." It is a survival signal that sounds only when in the presense of danger. We have done ourselves a grave disservivce by desensitizing ourselves to it with local news stories that tell us there is a rapist behind every bush and movies and amusement parks that make fear fun and safe. We have done ourselves a grave disservice when we try to talk ourselves out of our feelings, any feelings, but especially fear. Our body takes in all sorts of stimuli and has to process it. This isn't always made conscious to us. That sinking feeling could very well save your life or at least protect you from harm.

That is what happened to me. I had just broken up with my favorite boyfriend (or rather he had broken up with me) and came back to school from Spring Break. I went over to a male friend's to vent. We were alone in his apartment, which I didn't think anything of. Men and women can be friends. This was a good friend. No one else was back from break and I didn't want to be alone. I started talking about my old boyfriend, who was a friend of his as well. He seemed annoyed that I wanted to talk about this. He offered me a backrub. Things didn't feel quite right, but I accepted. It got a little too friendly and my body language let him know that I wanted him to back off. He kept with it. Then a voice went off in my head that said "Get out." It was hard to ignore that voice. I made my excuses very quickly and left.

I am convinced that I saved myself a lot of heartache and even more months in therapy by leaving. I later found out this guy really liked me. I think talking about how much I still liked my other boyfriend while this guy was trying to get to first base with me angered him. There were all sorts of clues that I could have easily dismissed because of what society teaches us. I'm glad I didn't.

I did when I was 8. I wasn't taught to listen to those voices inside of me. I didn't even know what they were. I remember feeling weird and that I should leave, but I didn't. I didn't for a while. The last time, I did listen. When that voice said "get out of the basement," I listened. That was the day I reported what was going on. Even at the young age of 8, those voices work. We just have to learn to listen to them and then not let society tell us we are just being girls or silly. Don't let others rob you of your ability to protect yourself.

Read the book. It gave me back something that was taken from me when I was 8, my security and the belief that I can protect myself. Self defense classes are great, but nothing can replace not letting yourself get in those situations in the first place.

[(Anonymous)]

i agree with you, joyce. it really bothers me when my mom discourages me from wearing spagetti-strap tops because they just might invite unwanted attention. i think it is absolutely outrageous to think that unwelcome attention is your own fault, for having been too friendly. unless we are talking about stuff beyond "friend" terms. you can't live your life worried that every move you make might *gasp* give ppl the wrong impression.

i generally don't get scared walking around at night because all the places i actually choose to stroll around are ones where i know the police patrol regularly (i.e., only on campus). also, i'm pretty fortunate that strange men/ppl never come talk to me. i think it's because i give off this vibe that shouts "don't mess with me or i'll kick your ass." (probably because i look angry all the time or something.) i don't often feel threatened because i turn whatever fear i have into anger (kind of like when i smash cockroaches and bugs). in houston, outside some of the ghetto-er restaurants, there are bums that approach you, give you some ridiculous story, and ask you for spare change. in those scenarios, i never stop to listen to their story but instead get my keys ready in case i need to stab them in the eye. i then promptly head to my car and lock the doors.

i took a self-defence for women class my freshman year, and i really recommend that you take something like that, for your own reassurance more than anything else. one of my other female friends has taken karate since she was in junior high. my two cents' worth is that you should NOT live your life in fear of strangers, of the scary possibilities, of the things that could go wrong just because you are female. but at the same time, this does not been that you should ignore your gut feelings and not be completely aware of your surroundings, which i suspect is what often happens to ppl who get victimized. change your mentality of having to live in fear or necessarily being weaker just because you are female because that mentality unknowingly affects how you carry yourself and convey yourself to other ppl (which has potential to making you a target). during seminars that teach women how to be smarter about avoid bad situations, they point out usually women who are labeled as easy targets (i.e., appear weak and defenseless) are sought out specifically. don't let that be you. you are strong and beautiful and no one should be messing with you.
(anlee)

[deevalish.livejournal.com]

I hate that this fear has power over my life just because I am female.

I used to think this way. I'm not sure what changed. Maybe it's because I'm older. Perhaps I am a little foolhardy in thinking that I can handle myself in an intense situation and that I could pull through intact. Shaken, probably but intact.

It doesn't mean that I still don't have this fear. If it's dark, I always scan the area around me, to see who is near and where they are. I don't like it when strange men feel compelled to talk to me. I understand that for some, they are merely being friendly. Depending on my mood, I will either just be polite and move along or if there is no place to move along to, be pleasant enough till my stop. That is also depending on how sane the guy is.

Self defense helps a little. It teaches you an "out". Some people are of the opinion that it teaches a false sense of security. I don't believe that. It's not false if it gives you the the power and the freedom to move about your life. The world is not a lions den.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I've also frequently had the experience, in real life and on the internet, that if men hear women discussing violence against women, they immediately derail the discussion by saying, "Yeah, well, men get raped by women too."

Which has happened, what, maybe ten times in the history of humankind? They don't want to talk about men raping men and boys, which does happen; they laugh that off with jokes about fags, jail, and priests. The purpose of bringing up the "women raping men" line is to stop the discussion cold in its tracks, so they don't have to confront what women have to live with.

Men do, of course, also have to live with violence, but it's far more targeted. A poor black man has an enormous risk of getting murdered, while a well-off white man never even thinks about it. Whereas every woman in existence has to consider the possibility of being raped or murdered, even if only subconsciously, every single day when she thinks about where to park, how much to drink, whether to meet a stranger's eyes.

I've tried explaining that to men, but they find it impossible to take seriously. Every time I've ever tried, they laugh, I tell them to just try to imagine what that's like, then they either deny it or tell me I'm living in fear. (For the record, I do not live in fear. But that doesn't mean I don't consider the possibilities, like anyone else.) I tell them it's like driving on the freeway-- you always have to consider that you might get squashed. They look blank. (This is why men have so many more fatal car accidents than women, perhaps.)

So while I agree with ginmar that men should be learning not to rape women rather than women learning how to avoid rape, I have no idea where to start with that. I'm a fairly persuasive person and the men I talk to regularly consider themselves liberal and enlightened, but ninety percent of them have no clue on these matters and aren't interested in learning.

I once had a conversation with a man _who teaches self defense_ about when no means no. He was convinced that women say no when they mean yes, and offered examples from his own dating experience which I hope to God did happen exactly as he told them to me, because if so, they were consensual-with-old-fashioned-communication. If not...

I said, "Yes, but sometimes no does mean no. If you assume no always means yes, than how do you know when no means no if you won't ask the woman if she's serious? What's she supposed to do to prove she means it, punch you in the face?" But I don't think I got through.

Anyway, given that, I think you should take a self-defense class. I find it enormously empowering and pleasant to know that I could probably kill a man with my bare hands, should I need to, and definitely make him think twice about whether he really wants to continue attacking me.

But no one's bothered me since I was a green belt. (Short version: three guys tried to mug me, I side-stepped them and dashed across the street. They looked really disappointed when I glanced back.) I think the knowledge that I can take care of myself gives me an aura of confidence that scares away bad characters, so I never even knew they were there.)

Oh, and by the way, according to Department of Justice statistics, women who resist _in any way_ when they're attacked-- by yelling, running, fighting, or all three-- have an eighty-five percent chance of getting away without being raped. Most of those women were not trained in any way. I conclude that most rapists are probably not expecting or willing to face serious resistance.

I'm with you on that,

[anneth.livejournal.com]

I hate that this fear has power over my life just because I am female.

It's a vicious sort of irony, in my experience - books, classes, the 'right' kind of attitude (for instance, the oft-quoted suggestions that women wear sensible shoes and keep their hair in a bun when in a dangerous situation, walk purposefully, act as though they know what they're doing, to dissuade potential victimizers) - it doesn't matter if you have them, because the fact is, if you're a woman, you're more voulnerable in certain situations than a man would be. It's not right, it's not fair, but it's the truth.

My roommate and I were mugged at 10 pm no more than 50 feet from our dorm. We were coming home from dinner, and shouting Shakespearean quotations at the top of our lungs, but a guy threatened us with a knife anyway (we didn't even have any money). Yes, he was caught within a few minutes, yes he was tried, convincted, and sentenced to several years of prison, but I've never, ever, ever been comfortable walking at night again. Even though that was in Chicago, and I now live in the uber-suburban saftey of a small, wealthy town, I don't like walking at night, or sleeping with my windows open. The problem is, I was doing everything "right" but I was attacked anyway. Would he have approached us if my friend had been a man? If I'd been a man? I just don't think so. And I hate that, I hate that that man destroyed my confidence and made me afraid. I hate my fear.

My boyfriend, an otherwise sensitive and understanding guy, is absolutely unsympathetic in this regard. When we were in New York city last December, we ended up walking through an obviously bad neighborhood at about 11 at night, and I was so upset about it that I made him agree to a taxi for the return trip. He still gives me grief about this, by jokingly telling the story to friends and teasingly referring to me as "sheltered" - (which is ridiculous, as I grew up in LA and went to college in one of the poorest neighborhoods in the entire country) - because he, at 6 feet and 185 lbs, doesn't understand. He's never been forced to confront his vulnerability. He's never been so afraid that he's looked at every passing stranger as a potential attacker.

There's something seriously wrong with our society, that a woman can be punished (either by society or by an attacker) for dressing as she wants, for responding to people as she wants. Florida (i think it's Fl) is even considering repealing the rape-shield laws that make it illegal for a defense attorney to bring up a rape victim's clothes, attitude, and prior sexual history in a rape trial! I hate that fear that you feel, I hate it in you, in myself, and in everyone, but I accept it, and I hope by my life and by my feminist movements to help make the changes to society that make it a part of our lives. I guess, it's not just about taking back the night, it's about changing the world. It's about making those who haven't experienced violence understand how it changes survivors, and it's about squelching the causes of that violence. (I'm sorry to get so preachy; I feel very strongly about this issue.)

Re: My story

[tonapah.livejournal.com]

I'm about halfway done with The Gift of Fear and I'm already telling people about it. I love that it manages to discuss this issue without making me more afraid, which is why I generally avoid self-defense advice in the first place. Great book.

[oyceter]

I actually have -- a four week one focused on women's self defense, plus half a year of both karate and kendo (I have a really short attention span when it comes to exercise). I very much enjoyed beating things up, heh heh.

Sigh. I just wish that there wasn't this reason to fear, you know? Even if I think I can take care of myself, I want there to be no reason for me to have to learn this or to feel wary. Ugh. Sometimes I wish I could just kick the world into a better shape or something.

Not easy stuff indeed.

[oyceter]

I haven't seen the men getting raped thing discussed in popular culture all that much, but I have encountered numerous other situations back in Princeton that reminded me of it -- when I showed that to my boyfriend, his first reaction was that people shouldn't be too hasty in enacting "draconian" laws re: sexual harassment, because *gasp* women might use them to get men in trouble! And people postering over V-Day posters at school, the general attitude that it wasn't "cool" to be PC/feminist and care about issues like this. It felt like a sort of atmosphere in which people pretended things like date rape didn't happen. Also, lots of protesting when the female president of the univ. hired *gasp* female staff members. I knew a good deal of people talking about it being discrimination and being overly PC and filling quotas or whatnot, but you know, no one ever said anything when the old male president hired other male staff members.

Things like this piss me off incredibly, and I'm still ashamed of myself because I never went up to my friends and told them what I really thought.

And you're so right about personal crime and things like date rape and the like.

Re: My story

[oyceter]

*nods* Thanks for the rec.

I don't know -- part of what I'm angry about (and one of the points that Ginmar made) is that the responsibility for avoiding/defusing those types of situations is put on the victim of the crime. Not to say that one shouldn't use common sense, but I think combating this should be a public concern, not just shoved in the ghetto of "women's issues."

[oyceter]

Yeah, I actually took a class offered by the school (plus a semester's worth of karate and kendo each). I should carry my kendo stick around all the time, and then no one would f** with me.

I don't know why all these strange guys talk to me! It's really annoying, and I wish I had a giant sign that said "GO AWAY."

I hate living and wondering all the time if I am giving "the wrong impression" etc. etc. if I am wearing tight clothing or whatever. It's such a stupid thing -- it reminds of Reading Lolita in Iran and how the women there had to veil themselves and cover themselves in case they provoked the men!! Yeah, limit the women's freedom because the men can't control themselves?!

[oyceter]

Self defense/martial arts classes were really wonderful when I was taking them, but it's been a while... I think I overcompensate in them and hit really hard ;).

What I hate most about the fear is that it changes my own behavior -- what I wear, where I think I can go safely, etc. And furthermore, so many people keep encouraging women in general to change their behavior to avoid this type of situation instead of addressing the root issue of violence, as though if by simply doing the right things, one can avoid it.

[oyceter]

I know! What pisses me off the most is that I showed one of the links to my boyfriend, and the first thing he could think of was, what if they passed really strict laws about enforcing sexual harrassment and it was abused by women crying wolf!

ARGH.

People who don't believe "no means no" are very frightening.

Mostly I am annoyed because the general assumption (at least at Princeton) was that women's issues were, well, women's issues, which is incredibly insulting. I keep trying to let my bf know that it is not just an "issue" because it affects everyone personally. I bet most of the people at college thought they were reasonable and enlightened, and I personally think everyone was in serious denial over the amount of date rape that was happening there because of the eating club atmosphere and the entire drinking problem.

It just pisses me off, because I was in a situation like that, and no one said anything. No one even acknowledged that it was date rape, except one of my roommates, two years later, after attending a Take Back the Night march.

I think I should start walking around everywhere with my kendo stick, heh.

Re: I'm with you on that,

[oyceter]

Exactly. And it places all the responsibility on the victim as well -- it reminds me of the discussion going on in Rahael's journal at one point about people feeling uncomfortable around these situations and the tendency to blame the victim.

And I hate feeling belittled whenever I go off about this because it's just a woman's issue, or whatever nonsense.

Sometimes I wish everyone would have to somehow live through the experience of being a racial minority or being female.

And you are most definitely preaching to the choir here ;). This issue (and issues like it) are my flaming red hot button issues.

[oyceter]

Ugh. I don't know, is it just me, or did it feel like there was the type of attitude that Ginmar describes in Princeton a lot?

Maybe it was just the people I hung around with....

Re: My story

[bhadrasvapna.livejournal.com]

I think what DeBecker presents is a public concern and ultimately responsible for much of what is wrong with society. He shows how we are taught to ignore our inner wisdom. One of the other books I think everyone should read is Christiane Northrup's Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom. Men have this inner wisdom as well (though it isn't cyclic), but I haven't found a good book about it or I would but that on the list as well.

It is ignoring this or worse telling it to shut up that messes people up. Not just in this area, but all facets of life. Angelus sums it up well in "Release." These people lash out because they see it as the way to stop the pain. Why not go to the source of that pain? That pain comes from not being who we are. We aren't who we are because we don't listen to our inner wisdom. What protects us can solve the problem in the first place.

As a public concern, how do we stop this sort of violence? Until we start dealing with the source of pain, we are just putting band aids on things. We can just treat it after the effect. If this, then that. If we want to stop that, deal with this.

Violence against women is directed there because of misogyny and that should be dealt with, but that will only cause that violence to go elsewhere. It will change the target, not the violence. I don't think this should be a women's issue in that women are the ones dealing with it because it happens to women. I think it should be a human issue because it involves humans. The person committing a crime is a victim as well, a victim of a world that is hard and bright and violent. The vast majority of abusers were abused themselves. When they cross the line from abused to abuser, does that mean they no longer deserve help?

Responsibility should be on society. Not to just put on band aids, but to get to the source of the problem. Otherwise the weeds will keep growing.

[oyceter]

Hee, righto then.

For me, it was ok when I was there, but sort of this bad nidgy feeling in the background, but the more I think about it and what I heard people say and whatnot, the more I dislike it (and them).

Re: My story

[oyceter]

*nods* Definitely.

Totally off the subject, but is Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom very different from Our Bodies, Our Selves? I've been eyeing the first one at the bookstore, but I've heard the most about the second. I think the similar titles just confuse me.

Re: My story

[bhadrasvapna.livejournal.com]

I think they are pretty different. Our Bodies, Ourselves, for its time (1969) was an incredible book. It finally gave women medical information about their bodies. It was an important step. It's a step, not the finish line. Problem was many think it is the finish line. They accept the patriarchal medical model that Western medicine is founded on.

Dr. Northrup does one better. The stuff in is pretty much common knowledge today. They did an update, but it doesn't celebrate women like Women's bodies, Women's Wisdom (whose title probably comes from the classic). Our Bodies didn't really address the mind-body connection like Dr. Northrup does.

The body stuff the Patriarchal model gives is important, but the mind cannot be dismissed. I like Women's Bodies better.

Re: My story

[oyceter]

Thanks for the info ^_^. I'll remember that next time I'm in the bookstore.