Wiscon 31: What These People Need Is a Honky

[oyceter]

Description: Tom Cruise is the Last Samurai. Kevin Costner wins the heart of American Indians with his wolf dancing. Orlando Bloom, in Kingdom of Heaven, goes from medieval England to Jerusalem to teach the Arabs how to sink wells and transport water. Is there anything that can be done about this plague of Orientalist white-guy Mary Sue-ism?

Panelists: Doselle Young, coniraya, me, Janine Ellen Young (mod)

Props to vito_excalibur for the Best Panel Title Ever!

Doselle Young ran in, saw me and coniraya sitting there, gulping down our caffeinated beverages of choice in an attempt to be coherent for the panel, and said, "I'm the moderator?!"

"Yup," we said, still half asleep.

"But I don't want to be the moderator! Being moderator is boring! I think we should rule by anarchy!"

And we probably would have until Janine Ellen Young (Doselle's wife) came in and got stuck as the moderator. There was much joking around about what the panel needed was a honky, as Janine was the only white person on the panel. I think coniraya (black) joked that he was probably going to get killed off in the first half.

I don't have very good notes on what was said at the panel, since I was mostly trying to concentrate on sounding somewhat intelligent.

I gave a list of movies that may or may not fit the panel description, as largely culled from LJ (LJ knows all!). My caveat is that I got these off the flist and haven't seen most of them. I'm also adding in the titles that came up during the panel itself.

List of movies/books: The Last Samurai, Shogun, The Painted Veil, The Magnificent Seven (? eventually voted off by the audience), Kim, South Pacific, Lost in Translation, Seven Years in Tibet, The King and I, Anna and the king, The Man Who Would Be King (identified as a take on the trope), Dances with Wolves, Geronimo, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, Windtalkers, Glory, Cry Freedom, Blood Diamond, The Constant Gardener, The Last King of Scotland (as a sort-of take on the trope), Amistad, Kingdom of Heaven, Emerald Forest, Clan of the Cave Bear, Lawrence of Arabia, Return of the Jedi (Ewoks), Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III, Tears of the Sun, Pathfinder, Tamora Pierce's Trickster and Kel books, and the multitude of movies that fit the "white teacher saving inner city kids" trope. ladyjax threw out Posse as an example of a good take on the trope.

I summarized the trope as being (please picture scarequotes around all occurences of "natives"): White guy flees from his own culture for personal reasons (to set him up as different from those with white privilege). White guy meets natives. Natives educate white guy. White guy learns the way of natives, possibly also converting a native person who was originally doubtful of him, thereby proving white guy's worthiness. White guy fights for naties. White guy makes dramatic escape while the native guy dies, possibly trying to help the white guy. The movie then ends with a dramatic coda and captions that inform the audience that despite white guy's triumph, the Situation Remains Dire.

The key to all this is that the entire movie is about the white guy's personal growth and realization and that people of color serve only to further the white guy's epiphanies.

"And don't forget, the white guy always gets the sexy native girl! Or a white girl who has been raised native," said one of the panelists.

Janine asked all of us which movie of this type offended us the most, and we all fell silent for a while. "But there are so many!" someone said.

Doselle Young then (or before? I have horrible memories of this panel) talked about a recent movie he saw in which the black character not only sacrificed himself for the white character, a la Terminator 2, but did so singing and dancing. I think I mentioned Cry Freedom because it was the most recent one I had seen and because the first half actually focused on the black character, only to have the entire second half be about the white journalist's escape. There were maybe two black characters in the second half, and the movie was set in South Africa! Coniraya mentioned Phantom Menace (I think); he remembered being so excited about it, only to go in and be slapped in the face with Jar-Jar Binks, the Japanese-sounding evil traders, and the Jewish-sounding merchant/slaveowner.

Janine asked if Lucas was deliberately being racist; all of us thought no, probably not. Coniraya said that lots of cartoons that Lucas watched probably had the same accents and that Lucas might have just picked it up, but that that was why it was important to examine these things.

I brought up the Ewoks speaking Tagalog, knowledge courtesy of littlebutfierce ("Yes, let's make the little brown bears speak the language of the litle brown people!" she remarked there); Coniraya told people about the Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee casting news. The audience all groaned out loud, and Doselle Young put his head in his hands and said, "Excuse me. I need a moment to process." I can't remember if news of Brian Dennehy cast as GenghisKublai Khan came up here or not, though I suspect it did.

seaya mentioned the giant genre of "white teacher saves inner city kids," leading Coniraya to describe a Mad TV sketch featured "Nice Teacher Lady."

Janine asked us why we thought these "white man savior" movies were made by Hollywood. I think I took that opportunity to spout off my theory that the movies displayed the difference between institutional racism and personal prejudice; the heroes in the movies are ok in the end because they have conquered their personal prejudice, even if they have done absolutely nothing to combat racism as an institution. But the coda at the end about the Dire Situation served to make the (white) audience feel better for educating themselves on these issues.

Coniraya made the point that these movies clearly weren't being made for POC, which was racism in a whole 'nother sense. The filmmakers and writers were simply assuming that their audience was white.

I think I made a point about how even though the story of the white pilot in Shogun and the mixed-race protagonist of the Bury My Heart movie were both based on historical fact, someone (or many someones) made the decision to use that historical figure instead of focusing on non-white historical figures.

Someone in the audience mentioned mixed-race characters in media and how they're nearly always forced to act as a bridge between cultures or a translator or an interpreter. And then, of course, there was mention of the Tragic Mulatto trope. starkeymonster said something like, "Wouldn't it be nice if, for once, there were a mixed-race character who was just, you know, there? Having her own life? And not being tragic or conflicted?"

Coniraya also said that he lost respect for any actor or performer who was mixed race but claimed to be white, and only later admitted to being mixed race when it was politically savvy to do so.

We went back to the topic of interracial romances and how they always seemed to be between a white man and a woman of color; I can't remember if people mentioned that it was like colonialism in the miniature, but I suspect they did. Coniraya also mentioned that the black man never gets to have a romance with the white woman, citing Pelican Brief (the romance is in the book) and something that I forgot. I can't remember if the trope of the desexualized Asian man and the super-sexualized Asian woman came up, though I think it did, because I remember saying something about not being a geisha.

Someone asked if Denzel Washington specifically asked to be paired with other women of color; Coniraya said yes, but that Denzel was one of the few black actors who had the clout to do so.

There was also talk of the politics and financials of Hollywood, of how there are nearly no actors like Denzel who can draw in a white audience, and of how the system perpetuated itself. All the starring roles are given to white actors, so they become the ones people are familiar with, while actors of color get stuck with stereotyped roles. And, of course, the system went even further, so that most producers and writers and directors are white as well. Coniraya mentioned Pam Noles' post on white males still dominating Hollywood, surprise surprise.

I think I said something about how most of the movies have the person of color admiring the white protagonist for his character or his skill or something, and in general the panelists seemed to agree that the movies were a salve for white guilt -- get acknowledged for your efforts without having to give up any privilege.

Someone else brought up the fact that we were mostly talking about movies and TV (there was mention of the Buffyverse California and the Stargates); Doselle mentioned that for books, he wasn't as struck by it because it wasn't visual. I mentioned the Empire books by Feist and Wurts for mine (People! Asian culture is not all about ritual suicide!). I think this is when Coniraya talked about the Tamora Pierce books.

We never got around to talking about the Magical Negro as a possible complement to the Honky Savior trope, and I think the panel concluded with panelists saying that it would be so easy not to create a Honky Savior movie just by having POC as the main characters.

All in all, this was the panel I had the most fun at, and I think it went pretty well with the audience too. I do wish we were able to talk about more things in detail, but I think we hit a good number of topics. Also, the audience was great.

ETA: I forgot! Here's the link I told people about at the panel: "How to write about Africa."

ETA2: Attributed note of white teacher subgenre to seaya

ETA3: Fixed info on Brian Dennehy and added link.

Comments

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

(People! Asian culture is not all about ritual suicide!)

WORD.

Someday after Bone & Chalice I will finish writing that space opera based on the Imjin War, and there will be NO RITUAL SUICIDES, just two Asian-based cultures cheerfully killing each other off.

[oyceter]

That will be awesome!

I wait with baited breath for something about Japan that doesn't include geisha or ritual suicide.

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

Nobody brought up Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword? Huh.

[oyceter]

DOH! That completely slipped my mind!

[raanve]

There was also talk of the politics and financials of Hollywood, of how there are nearly no actors like Denzel who can draw in a white audience, and of how the system perpetuated itself.

I can think of very few, and I am wracking my brain pretty hard. Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Samuel L Jackson. Those are the three big stars I can come up with. Don Cheadle has been getting really good press lately (for good reason), but I don't think he's of that same caliber, as far as box office clout.

I'm sorry I missed this one -- I think it was scheduled opposite another panel I really wanted to attend (X-Women panel? I can't remember).

[oyceter]

I can think of very few, and I am wracking my brain pretty hard. Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Samuel L Jackson.

Heh, yeah... OMG I can totally see them becoming the "Hopkinson, Butler, Delany, Barnes" chant in SF.

white programming guilt moment :)

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank God! That meand I didn't *actually* appoint the lone white person on the panel as the moderator, even by accident.

Re: white programming guilt moment :)

[oyceter]

Hee!! No, you didn't at all ^_^. Though I think the switch made Doselle a lot happier, judging from his reaction ;).

[seaya.livejournal.com]

I was the one who mentioned the white teacher thing (and I'm a white teacher myself) heh.

[oyceter]

Cool! And hi!

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

Right, don't forget Dune. What the Universe needs is a honky.

[oyceter]

Hee, yes! Thanks!

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

Do the Ewoks really speak Tagalog? Learn something every day...

I suppose not enough people know about the Ewok prequels/"sidequels" to talk about them in conjunction with Return of the Jedi, and whether Lucas comes out looking a little better, a lot worse, or just confused because of them.

[oyceter]

Yup, apparently they do! A woman in the audience mentioned they speak Swedish as well.

I alas don't know anything about the Star Wars books =(.

[perkinwarbeck2.livejournal.com]

I think it's interesting to consider Shogun (1975) alongside The Left Hand of Darkness (1969). Both of them are explorations of "alien" societies, and both of them use the device of the visitor who is closer to the expected reader (I think it's as clear that Clavell, writing in English, wasn't writing for a Japanese audience as that Le Guin wasn't writing for a Gethenian one) who can be used as a pathway into the alien culture. They're both clearly in the tradition of the utopian novel where the present day explorer is washed up on the shore to make it easier for the reader to learn the culture along with the new arrival, rather than the immersive POV of a character from the society, like The Dispossessed or Memoirs of a Geisha. (Together for the very first time in a sentence!)

I think this articulates what is different for me about Shogun from the "need a honky" films. It's "start from the familiar and explore an exotic place" rather than "one white man is just what we need to save the world".

And this way you also get to see The Left Hand of Darkness in the context of colonialism... the most benign Hainish kind, naturally, but... is Genly Ai's visit to Gethen really going to lead to something better than those first contacts with Japan? Le Guin seems to have forgotten in later books the enemy out there that the Hainish wanted everyone to unite against -- is it going to end like William Tenn's "The Liberation of Earth"?

[estara.livejournal.com]

I never thought of "visitor as translator for alien culture" as a POC-need-a-white-hero before... I guess that means C.J.Cherryh's Foreigner books are the same, although the guy IS literally the translator and not the Powers That Be. However they need his interpreting to survive the challenges put, so I guess it's a Aliens-need-human-hero after all.

Well I enjoy them anyway. She also addresses the problem of neutral interpretation and manipulation quite a lot in theh books.

[chomiji]

Re your comment on "the trope of the desexualized Asian man": a recent article from the Washington Post may be of interest:

'Slanted Screen' Rues the Absence of Asians

It's a review of a show, "The Slanted Screen: Asian Men in Film and Television," that ran on public television last week (hmmm ... and here's a website for the show as well).

[oyceter]

Oh, awesome, thanks for the link!

Please clarify

[estara.livejournal.com]

"The Man Who Would Be King (identified as a take on the trope),"

Sorry but I don't understand what you meant in the brackets, could you clarify?

And where is the white protagonist that runs the show in the Empire books? I thought the main person was the female Tsurani (of course she got help from her Midkemian slave AND from the queen of another species) and she kept within her society while changing the rules somewhat.

Or is the point here that Feist and Wurts aren't POC?

I'm half Arabian myself, but raised German, so I can't really say I can comment with any POC knowledge (particulary since I look like my German mother and never had the problems my brother had).

Re: Please clarify

[oyceter]

Someone in the audience said that the movie was about two white men who eventually kill each other and fuck everything up; ergo, it nominally follows the White Savior storyline but comments on it by having the white men be the destroyers instead of the saviors.

And where is the white protagonist that runs the show in the Empire books?

Not there, really. But it feels like a White Savior type book to me because it takes a POC culture (based on Japan) and then sticks a Midkemian (European) in there, who then leads the heroine to realize the ways of her culture are wrong and to reform things based on Midkemian/European values. Thankfully Kevin isn't the main character, but there's still the "I show you the error of your ways!" thing from the European-associated character.

Also, it follows every horrible trope there is for Japanese fantasies.

[fourthage.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the write-up! Someday I am going to go to Wiscon and hear all of these interesting panels in person.

[oyceter]

EEEE! I brainwash you into going! Someday...

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

Added this to whileaway's memories!

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

I didn't see it, but wasn‘nt "Mississippi Burning" a movie about the Civil Rights Movement about a couple of white guys?

A little nit-pickingky:
"The Magnificent Seven" was a remake of the Japanese "Seven Samurai", so there are complications, and making the peasants Mexican to make them as destitute as possible could be artistically defensible.
"Seven Years in Tibet" was watered down a lot (since the book was!), but it shows a teenaged avatar in one of the most remote and "backward" places on earth making a Nazi into a human being just with his presence.
And "The King and I" and "Anna and the King" are about one of the most spectacularly successful reverse-exploitations in history. Of all the earth, Thailand was never a European colony!! The education of King Chulalongkorn clearly was an outstanding success.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

That is a sadly accurate description of Mississippi Burning.

I'm confused about why you think Anna and the King/The King and I are reverse exploitation: can you clarify? I am not familiar with the original book, but the musical strikes me as making use of a lot of racist tropes about hidebound Asians, free-spirited Westerners, and doomed tragic Asian romances. Thailand's situation doesn't seem to be quite as straightforward to me as you make out: It may never have been a direct European colony, but a lot of its economy depends on and is limited by Western exploitation.

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

"And don't forget, the white guy always gets the sexy native girl! Or a white girl who has been raised native," said one of the panelists.

It's interesting that this is the opposite of romance novels, which always seem to have an 'exotic' male lead rather than a 'native' girl. I suppose that the reader of the romance novel is implicitly female (and white), whereas the audience for the white (male) saviour genre is male (and white).

I'm enjoying these posts so much that I might try to go to WisCon 32, even though I'm not sure exactly where Wisconsin is.

[oyceter]

It's interesting that this is the opposite of romance novels, which always seem to have an 'exotic' male lead rather than a 'native' girl. I suppose that the reader of the romance novel is implicitly female (and white), whereas the audience for the white (male) saviour genre is male (and white).

Ooo, yes, that's a good point.

[octopedingenue]

Recent Denzel Washington flick Deja Vu is a terrible horrible no good very bad movie: still, it is interesting that the female lead/Denzel's love interest is explicitly mixed-race (her white father has a speaking role) but as she hangs out living her life she isn't particularly more conflicted in her life than another action movie damsel-in-distress. Which doesn't make other aspects of the movie less headdesky in terms of race, gender, economics, logic, and the laws of physics.

Will Smith could be interesting in I Am Legend (in the book, last non-vampirified man becomes The Other by being normal human) and Tonight, He Comes (black superhero in interracial relationship with white lover played by South African actress) if either movie is not the suck.

Is Morgan Freeman as God in Bruce/Evan Almighty an extension of the Magical Negro, a twist on it, and/or something else?

[oyceter]

Which doesn't make other aspects of the movie less headdesky in terms of race, gender, economics, logic, and the laws of physics.

HEE! Oh action movies...

I wish I could comment on Morgan Freeman in Bruce Almighty! Alas, I haven't seen the movies. From trailers and such, I'd probably classify him as Magical Negro, just because the movies are still about the White Guys and their experiences, but again, this is from not having seen them!

[safrialailo.livejournal.com]

I get most of these and I'm definately agains the trope,(even though I LIKED the constant gardener as a book due to recent discussions with friends from other races i've had it pointed out to me how problematic it is and gone "doh".) but I just have to ask. How does lost in translation fit?

Cos to me that movies, all about people feeling lost in other cultures, sure they could have done it with PoC in a country not their own but surely that's just the more general thin of whites dominating hollywood. I don't really see him as saving anything at all,just desperately trying to find himself?

So yeah just wondering how you saw that as fitting in. Thanks for an incredibly interesting article.

[oyceter]

I think Lost in Translation was suggested as a "maybe sort of" movie, at least from what I can remember. I suspect it's more the whole "it is all about white people and their angst!" despite the fact that it's set in a non-white country, much like The Painted Veil (cholera as a romantic backdrop!). So I think it's more indicative of it being all about the white folk rather than the White Savior trope.

And thanks for reading!

[morchades.livejournal.com]

I think I said something about how most of the movies have the person of color admiring the white protagonist for his character or his skill or something, and in general the panelists seemed to agree that the movies were a salve for white guilt -- get acknowledged for your efforts without having to give up any privilege.

I can't be the only one thinking of John Stewart in Green Lantern: Rebirth.

(Of course, its possible I'm the only one to read both that and this report.)

[oyceter]

Ooo, how so? I've never read it, so I have no idea!

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

It was a fabulous and fun panel, and it's the first panel my wife and I mention to our friends when going on about the joys of WisCon. :) The add-on of "The Kingdom of Heaven" has allowed my wife to revise her summary of the trope to "Last of the Samurai Dancing With Wolves in Heaven."

I was going to mention at one point, but then forgot, the granddaddy of the Honky Savior stories, The Last of the Mohicans.

[oyceter]

It was a fabulous and fun panel, and it's the first panel my wife and I mention to our friends when going on about the joys of WisCon.

Oh that's so awesome! Yay!

Also, of course Last of the Mohicans! um, someday I will watch it, but right now I am honky-movie-ed out (Edward Zwick, king of honky movies! I have seen his Glory, Last Samurai AND Blood Diamond now.)

[alias_sqbr]

Hi, I came accross this post (possibly indirectly) via metafandom. Anyway, I'm feeling rather unwell so this may be a totally dumb comment, but talking about "Lost in Translation" made me think of an australian film which came out around the same time, Japanese story. A Japanese man comes to australia on business and has a clash of cultures romance with the australian geologist assigned to him. It's a bit Australia=big empty country full of lovable larrikins, Japan=uptight cities full of business people (as an indoorsy urban australian who knows lots of freewheeling asians this rubbed me slightly the wrong way) but still breaks sterotypes a bit and is a sweet story. Unless there were just different stereotypes and I didn't notice :)

Also, I personally think "Lost in Translation" is ok since it doesn't pretend to be about Japan, it's about the alienation of being overseas and how desperate you get for a taste of home. Telling this story did mean having to make the Japanese characters alienating and strange but I at least got the feeling that this was in no way meant to be a reflection on what Japan is really like if you have a chance to get to know it (which the main characters didn't) But YMMV

[oyceter]

Hi!

I think the person who suggested Lost in Translation did so with some caveats, so no, I agree and don't think it perfectly fits into the "white savior" trope. On the other hand, it is, like so many of the "white savior" movies, a movie that takes place with lots of POC in the background but is still ultimately about the lives and loves and whatnot of the white main characters.

So while the movie may be ok by itself, the thing is, it's still falling into that category.

The film you mentioned sounds interesting! Also, I'm glad it has a POC protagonist! I'll have to check that one out.

Wait, so does mean

[410-gone.livejournal.com]

That there can't be any film adaptations of these historical events/personages?

The Barbary Wars- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_War

John Rabe (as well as Minnie Vautrin and John Magee)- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe

Re: Wait, so does mean

[oyceter]

Thank you for your straw man argument! You may want to check out How to Suppress Discussions of Racism.

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a fascinating panel! I immediately thought of Kung Fu, starring David Carradine instead of Bruce Lee, who was initially meant to star in it.

You might want to check out the very excellent animated show Avatar: The Last Airbender -- it's one of those shows that starts out for children, but it's so good that in the end, half the audience turns out to be adults. Every single character in it is Asian. M. Night Shymalian is doing a live-action movie version of the show and, though there's no word on the casting yet, I find myself afraid that it's going to be re-cast with Caucasian actors.

[oyceter]

I've seen Avatar! I love it so much ^_^. And yeah, worried about the casting for the live action as well..

ooo, yes!

[(Anonymous)]

"I think I said something about how most of the movies have the person of color admiring the white protagonist for his character or his skill or something"

Even when it's shit they TAUGHT the white man! e.g. The Last Samurai

Is the Magical Negro an extension of the Mammy (the self-sacrificing source of boundless spiritual --which usually means any idea that's not inspired by the industrial revolution or the Crusades-- wisdom, but who would have thought) or do you mean like "all you people know voodoo, right?" magical?

And, one for the list: Blood Diamond.
This one is unique from the others in that it criticizes one White Savior charatcer, but still exhonerates another, has that character compare a black man to a baboon and threaten to skin him (he does skin the baboon and for no reason, but that's another blog), and all without the director noticing that all of it might be offensive. Seriously: rent it and turn on the commentary. But then he is still the guy did Last Samurai. Enjoy!

Re: ooo, yes!

[oyceter]

Hi, thanks for commenting! Would you mind signing them in the future so I know when you show up again?

I think the Magical Negro, the "all you people know voodoo/martial arts/whatever" and the Mammy thing all are very similar but not quite the same? The Magical Negro feels a bit like a combination of the latter two: they're the self-sacrificing source of boundless spiritual wisdom who get that wisdom from arcane spiritual sources!

I think Blood Diamond is on the list, actually ;). But yes to the critique of the character, and at least there's no black man sacrificing himself for everyone. Still, yeah, I believe you about the commentary.

[tablesaw]

Granta has relaunched its site. The essay is now at: http://www.granta.com/Magazine/92/How-to-Write-About-Africa?view=articleAllPages

[oyceter]

Oh, thanks for the heads up! Changing link now...

[reginagiraffe]

Just found this via zvi_likes_tv.

White guy fights for natives. White guy makes dramatic escape while the native guy dies, possibly trying to help the white guy.

You could add Ironman to this list, too.


(Sorry for the edits! I thought I was on Dreamwidth. Duh.)

[oyceter]

No prob! I haven't actually seen Ironman, but from what I've heard, yeah, it sounds like it fits to a T.

I really need to keep updating the list here.... thanks for the reminder!

Parody

[(Anonymous)]

I remember a long ago skit from MadTv about this South African white woman during Apartheid who "cried and wept" and wrote strongly worded letters to the local newspaper at the inconvenience of losing her black maid. (As the country went to hell all around her and she couldn't clean her home or fix her own meals.)
I think this was a direct parody of Out Of Africa, which even tho' it is set in Africa has sidelined all of the African people in it to little more than local color.
There's a whole host of these films where the story is supposed to be about the major events of that time and place but all of the natives barely have lines in the movie and are sometimes entirely absent. The only way you would know where the characters are and what's going on is because the white (usually British or American) characters are discussing it.
I blame those darn Tarzan movies.