*headdesk*

[oyceter]

Fandom, why so stupid? (link goes to chopchica's handy link round up to good posts discussing the stupid occurring, not to the stupid itself, which is on f_w by and large)

In other words...

Q: This event is specific to a majority and makes the minority feel excluded.

BAD way to disagree:
A: You are wrong! Also, it's not specific to the majority! Also, you are too sensitive and there is no anti-semitism here! You Jewish people are all so touchy! And you're oppressing me by making me remember all these weird, unfamiliar holidays! Neener!

GOOD way to disagree:
A: Ohhh. Hrm. Hello there, my privilege. I will acknowledge you and note that you exist. Maybe I do not agree with everything in the original note or the solution, but I see where it's coming from and acknowledge that you may have a very different perspective on this from me because my perspective is privileged and I get to ignore a lot of stuff.

ETA: Just to clarify, my problem isn't with Yuletide or the Yuletide organizers, but rather with the responses on f_w and in the comments of many posts. I particularly like untrue_accounts' post detailing the issues and heartily agree with her.

Comments

[nestra.livejournal.com]

I worry that what's getting lost in all of this discussion is that the yuletide mods, to my knowledge, were actually not involved in this at all. mamadeb didn't bring her issues to their attention, so it's not like they brushed off her concern. In fact, I'm sure they'd be very responsive to making it easier for people to sign up.

I know you didn't say that, and I don't think any of the posts I've read have said it, but I fear that it's the impression some people will come away with, especially the farther we get from the original post.

And this isn't really directed at you. You just have the misfortune to be the latest post I've seen on the issue. *g*

[oyceter]

Hee! Yeah, I should point that out. Because my beef isn't with the mods at all, nor do I think they've brushed things off or anything; it's with how the responses to mamadeb's original post have gone do not go, do not collect $200, land straight in Anti-Semitism Land!

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

I was reading the comments in the OP's entry and on FW and my first reaction was: Dude, where's my bingo card?

[honorh.livejournal.com]

I don't have a problem with the OP's complaint. Her way of dealing with it could've been better, i.e. informing the mods that hello, there's a Jewish holy day there, and could they please move things around to accommodate those who celebrate it? Nonetheless, I don't think she should've gotten jumped on. That said, I did find her reduction of Christmas to eating a lot and opening presents to be fairly offensive. Y halo thar, religious tolerance?

I don't really think this has to do with privilege, though; it has to do with lack of knowledge from outside a culture. People don't keep track of holidays they don't celebrate--as a Protestant, I couldn't tell you when Lent begins because it's a Catholic thing, and if it weren't for my brother-in-law, I wouldn't have known Canadian Thanksgiving was this last Monday. The only reason the major holidays on the American calendar are celebrated by the majority is that they've become so commercialized that their religious significance (if any) gets glossed over.

[oyceter]

I know, me too! I just keep thinking, "People! Were you not listening the last time?"

[oyceter]

I don't really think this has to do with privilege, though; it has to do with lack of knowledge from outside a culture. People don't keep track of holidays they don't celebrate

I do think it has to do with privilege, and part of that is because I am fairly certain most Muslims, Jews and atheists who don't celebrate Christmas in the US could tell you when it is.

The only reason the major holidays on the American calendar are celebrated by the majority is that they've become so commercialized that their religious significance (if any) gets glossed over.

The commercialization of those holidays still doesn't make them religiously neutral. Some people choose to celebrate them as such, which is cool, but it still doesn't negate Christian culture as the default culture in much of the western world.

[seaya.livejournal.com]

Giant smooches to you.

You win the entire internet.

Thank you for being an ally.

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

Of course not. This is fandom. It harshes the squee.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

informing the mods that hello, there's a Jewish holy day there, and could they please move things around to accommodate those who celebrate it?

But the mods have already made the signup period two weeks long, so as to accomodate anyone who might be away from the computer for whatever reason (unless they're going to be away for the entire two-week time, in which case, well, sucks to be them, but that has got to be a miniscule percentage if anyone). So she missed the first few days. That's why there was still (at the time of her post) over a week left for her to sign up.

I agree that the response on FW was pretty offensive, but she was awfully quick to put on her persecution pants (which, let's face it, many fans are - it's not something specific to her or to Jews) rather than to go "whew, glad the signup period is so long, so I didn't actually miss anything!"

[oyceter]

I don't agree with the original tone of the poster; nor do I think Yuletide needs to change. What's disturbed me the most is how quickly the responses to the original poster went to responses about Judaism, and I don't think the original poster's tone or persecution pants or whatnot justify any of that. Plus, like other fans have been saying, it's not the first time complaints from Jewish fans have been met with horrible anti-Semitism.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Oh totally. I mean, I think she was wanky, but that doesn't justify the sort of response she got. I just wish people would leave her original complaint out of it altogether because I have this Pavlovian response of "two weeks! two weeks!" XD

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

Word to all of this.

I do think it has to do with privilege, and part of that is because I am fairly certain most Muslims, Jews and atheists who don't celebrate Christmas in the US could tell you when it is.

I've lost count of the number of comments I've seen saying that they've never heard of Sukkot, so whatever. It's a pretty important Jewish holiday. Way to negate it!

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I think her initial post and complaint was silly in the extreme. But did it really justify that level of anti-Semitism she (and by extension we) all got in response?

FW should've been mocking deb because she was *silly*. Instead, she got mocked because she was *Jewish*, and there's something horribly wrong about that.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping it's not coming off that way in my post(s), because I think the yuletide mods are doing an excellent job, and never for one second have I considered that they might have negative feelings about Jews (in fact, some of them are Jewish, yes? And even if they weren't, I *still* wouldn't believe that about them).

It's not so much about deb's post as what came *out* of deb's post. She got mocked because she was Jewish, and not because her post was whiny and silly.

I just wanted to make that clear, because I know I've been posting a lot about fandoms's defensive reactions to Sesas of all forms. But I in no way think there's a conspiracy here or that the admins and other mods of ficathons wish we'd just go away. I just think that fandom at large needs to be okay with the concept that those ficathons are about Christmas. Most of the Jews I know understand that are are just fine. Some love the ficathons and participate, some don't. The underlying message can influence people's behaviors in different ways. All I (and a lot of others) want is for people to acknowledge that underlying message.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

A: You are wrong! Also, it's not specific to the majority! Also, you are too sensitive and there is no anti-semitism here! You Jewish people are all so touchy! And you're oppressing me by making me remember all these weird, unfamiliar holidays! Neener!

Don't forget the bonus accusation calling somebody a kike!

[ckd]

And the "not knowing holidays" thing isn't limited to not knowing the dates, as seen in the Evite mailing that listed several "reasons to party", one of which was "It's Yom Kippur". Um, no.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Oh totally. Like with the previous racism discussions, it becomes obvious there's some skeevy stuff under the surface just waiting for an opportunity to bubble up. :(

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

I wish you wouldn't keep directing me towards these things. Why is that people are so incapable of seeing that maybe, possibly, their feet are made of clay?

- Being anti-semitic = evil.
- I am not evil.
- Therefore I can't be anti-semitic and nothing I say or do can ever disprove that.

When will people's own self-image become less important than the feelings of others?

[nestra.livejournal.com]

But I in no way think there's a conspiracy here or that the admins and other mods of ficathons wish we'd just go away.

No, not at all, and I don't want to imply that people don't have valid criticisms. It's just that fandom is, in essence, one big game of Telephone, and elynross in particular does so much for certain segments of fandom that I feel the urge to protect her, you know?

[whatthefaith.livejournal.com]

Not exactly a comment about the entry. It's the former wildmole and I missed reading your Lj and wanted to add you back. Hope that's okay.

"American" holidays

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

Being Hellenistic, of course Christianity is massively culturally appropriational, but I'm always amused that so many of the U.S.'s holidays are secularizations -- like Halloween.
But immediately here, the great, most-All-American holiday of Thanksgiving ws invented partly in imitation of Sukkot!

who you calling "fandom"?

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much out on the edge on these threads: I follow oyceter since I met her at last Wiscon, and I'm very glad to have stuff coming in from directions I don't usually get.
So I've missed a lot in this cable (rope? hawser? - a LOT of threads twisted together), including most of the very beginning.

I have a question, though, which I haven't seen anything addressing. What do you mean by "fandom"? I know the terminology and some of the tropes have been appropriated by ever-widening circles, with ever less knowledge of the histories, but when there's this big flap about anti-Semitism in fandom, I have no clue what you're talking about.
I'm an assimilated American Jew who still takes Judaism seriously. I've been to a couple of hundred science fiction conventions (social gatherings, not commercial expos) over a few decades, and I have no idea who the problem people all this is about are.

[oyceter]

It's the least I can do!

[oyceter]

Yeah, it's... I don't expect people to know all of my holidays and such or when Chinese New Year is every year, but. After a while, it hurts to get yet another reminder that you are not mainstream, you are not majority culture.

[oyceter]

Exactly. And it's just so painful to see how quickly comments went to blaming oversensitive Jews and the International Jewish Conspiracy and whatnot.

[oyceter]

FWIW, I didn't really get a sense of that from anyone's posts that I've read -- it seemed like most people agree that deb's post may not have been the best way to say things, but that the reaction to her post was insane and anti-Semitic and just plain wrong.

[oyceter]

Of course! Because that always makes things better!

[oyceter]

O_o. No words.

[oyceter]

Heh, I apologize for your blood pressure!

I just keep wanting to say: people! It is possible to be completely unintentionally anti-Semitic or racist or sexist or classist, especially given the culture in power. And it sucks, but not pointing it out sucks more.

[oyceter]

Hi! Of course it's ok, and welcome back!

Re: who you calling "fandom"?

[oyceter]

Generally when I refer to fandom in my LJ, I'm usually referring to media fandom. Sometimes it overlaps with sf/f fandom or anime/manga fandom, but not always. chopchica has a pretty good roundup that I linked to above.