Racism on an international scale

[oyceter]

This is directly related to several comments seen lately regarding racism on an international scope, most of which have been a part of the conversation about racism and Martha in the New Who. But I'm also writing this because I've seen these arguments come up before in the past as well, only I am too lazy to find all the links.

(From last I saw, there was a lot of dialogue going on in all of the threads, so I am pointing people there as reference and not as an invitation to pile up. The link above are also just examples that were fresh in my mind; again, I've seen this many other places as well.)

I was going to save this for Intl. Blog Against Racism Week, but hey, why not kick things off early?

Disclaimers like whoa!

Despite having largely grown up in Taiwan, I've spent a lot of time in the US as well, and I went to a school in Taiwan in which most of the English teachers were American and many of the students moved there from America, like me. So my worldview is very America-centric, and I am probably going to say some stupid things. I say this not to excuse myself, because really, there is no excuse for ignorance, but to just say I know I have blinders on.

I also in no way support American cultural imperialism, which is alive and well, and I fully agree that the fandom circles I have experience with are largely American-centric and that being American carries a ton of power and privilege that is often ignored by those who have it. That said...

I'm incredibly disturbed by this trend of white British people either denying that racism exists in the UK or protesting that other oppressions are more important and serious than racism. I've also seen this coming from Australians and Canadians, and I'm sure it has come from basically anyone living in a non-US country as well.

I fully support and agree with the notion that racism manifests itself in different ways, shapes and forms in other countries. I also fully support and agree with the notion that racism in all countries is complicated by oppressions of all sorts, particularly oppressions of class, nationality, and religion.

BUT.

None of this means that racism doesn't exist in [insert country here].

Last year, I think coffeeandink asked me about racism in Taiwan. This was after the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of DOOM and after I had been thinking more about racism and and race. I flippantly said something about there being none, probably thinking in the back of my head that white privilege didn't exist in Taiwan because white people were the clear minority, and that Taiwan was monoracial, and that for me, Taiwan's most important political issues had more to do with sex, class and China. And I'm sure when I said that, I fully believed it and didn't think I was oppressing or denying anyone.

Of course, I believed it and was able to not see racism because in Taiwan, I am a member of the race in power. And in Taiwan, people of other races are made nearly invisible because they are comparatively few in number, because they have basically no visible positions of power in the government, and because, surprise, surprise, their issues are seen as "marginal" and "unimportant." My not seeing them didn't mean they weren't there. It just meant I was blind to them, because I had the privilege to do that.

Perceived invisibility and actual non-existence are two very different things.

For a long time, I believed it when people in the UK and Australia and Canada and etc. told me race wasn't an issue there.

But you know what? Most of the people telling me race wasn't an issue were members of the privileged race there. And a very short time reading around anti-racist communities showed that there were lots of vocal, non-American POC and allies who talked about racism in their own countries. Five seconds on Google pull up lists of anti-racism organizations around the world, and, yes, in the UK. Reading through them, many of the details are different (ex. British Asians vs. Asians in Australia and how the term "Asian" calls to mind different groups of people and of course how the experience of British Asians and Asians in Australia are different). But the overall framework of oppression and privilege has a striking similarity to that of racism elsewhere.

And quite frankly, when I hear from a set of people with privilege and power that racism doesn't exist, and then when I hear from another set of people who are living as POC in those very places or are speaking out as anti-racists, I believe that second set of people more.

I do not think the first set of people are willfully lying, just as I wasn't deliberately deceiving people when I said there was no racism in Taiwan. But I do think that they have the privilege to not see the oppression that they are benefitting from, just as I was blind to oppression of people-who-were-not-like-me.

The lack of racism is a lot more than the non-existence or scarcity of racial minorities, particularly when historically, the lack of racial minorities can usually be traced back to genocide, colonization, deportation, and racially-based immigration policy. This, by the way, also applies to people claiming that their city/state/province/region isn't racist, though then, the reasons are probably compounded by income disparities and white flight (yes, US term I am using as a descriptive shortcut).

Furthermore, I think people who say that racism in their country is nowhere near as important as another ism are perpetuating a false dichotomy. There is no hierarchy of oppression. They intersect and feed off each other. So anti-Muslim sentiment is a huge issue where you live (and probably in a lot more places as well). That doesn't mean that racism is not important. And I don't think saying racism is an issue means that anti-Muslim sentiment is not important, particularly when the two often intertwine to devastating effect.

Also, to take this from a country-specific POV to an international POV, racism is an international issue and internationally, white privilege is a problem. Look at the division of wealth among nations; look at the political power. But over a century of white imperialism takes a long time to erase. (And no, citing Japan as the exception doesn't actually prove anything, save that it's an exception.) Yes, a white person abroad in a non-white country will very likely experience racial prejudice. But within the global framework, I'm also betting that overall, that white person is seen as having more power and money than a POC.

Bringing up how your country isn't racist in an argument about racism looks a lot like other tactics for derailing discussions about racism, particularly when other people of your nationality have been actively participating in anti-racist activity for quite some time. It looks a lot like someone popping into a thread about sexism in your country solely to say that their country has no sexism and that sexism is a concern of your country, and your country alone.

Which is to say: I (and I suspect most people blogging about this) welcome comments on how racism differs in various countries and on a global scale. But not on how racism doesn't exist or how talking about racism (particularly complaining about racist representations and stereotypes) in and of itself perpetuates racism.

Links:
- delux_vivens on the African diaspora
- spiralsheep on "Mammy" in Britain
- rydra_wong on racism in the UK
- shewhohashope on color-blindness in the UK
- Links to international anti-racist sites here and here
ETA:
- The Global Hierarchy of Race
- Stop Trying to "Save" Africa
- Racism in UK media
(More useful links being posted in comments as well)

NOTE: I am screening all anonymous comments to this entry, and I will be freezing any threads that look troll-y.

Comments

[em-h.livejournal.com]

I'm really stunned by people trying to claim that racism doesn't exist in Canada.

It's true that racism operates a bit differently here (I have the impression that in the US, the black/white dynamic is kind of primary and almost primal, and the main framework in which racism is understood; it's probably true that racism against black people doesn't have that same dominant emotional charge as opposed to, say, racism against First Nations) -- but slightly different racism doesn't equate to less racism.

[em-h.livejournal.com]

Also, that was an insanely unclear and badly-written comment. Apologies for hideous sentence structures.

[ginny-t.livejournal.com]

I used to think quite proudly that there was no racism in Canada. Alas, that is not the case. I used to think that I was not racist. I now think I'm not racist as much as I can be. All the "ism"s are important, especially if you're on the wrong side of the equation.

I remember how steaming mad I was about a year ago when one of our papers ran a headline along the lines of "By 2010, Toronto will be more not-white than white. How will we deal?" Steaming mad. Bastards.

[oyceter]

*nodnod* I think awareness of racism is the first step to eliminating it.

Also, ouch to that headline!

[cija.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, thank you. I sometimes wonder if people say this stuff because they really believe it[1] or because they just think Americans won't know any better or be able to contradict them. (Like -- I remember a while ago there was a minor stir because Oprah Winfrey was supposed to have been treated shabbily in an Hermes boutique in Paris, and there were lots of people tittering about what a stupid American she must be to wonder if it was because she was black, because of course French people aren't racist like that. And I would see stuff like that, and first my head would explode and then I'd want to say, I've BEEN to France, who the hell do you think you're fooling?)

But of course lots of Americans do start to believe this stuff and even repeat it, once they've heard some (white) Europeans say it a few times. It makes me really embarrassed for them as well as angry.

[oyceter]

But of course lots of Americans do start to believe this stuff and even repeat it, once they've heard some (white) Europeans say it a few times. It makes me really embarrassed for them as well as angry.

Yeah! I mean, not too long ago, I was too embarrassed to talk about racism outside of the US because all the responses I'd previously gotten had made me think maybe I was wrong and it didn't exist, even though... I had heard from other people that that so wasn't the case.

The feeling I've gotten is that a lot of people actually do believe it; they don't see the effects of racism on them, and therefore assume it doesn't exist. Which, uh... yeah.

(frozen) (no subject)

[justinelavaworm.livejournal.com]

White Australians have said to you with a straight face that Australia isn't racist?! Please. We had a White Australia policy. You weren't allowed into the country as an immigrant if you weren't white. We had a policy of taking indigienous children away from their parents. This shit was still going on in the late sixties/early seventies. And the ramifications of those profoundly racist government policies are still being felt.

Australia not racist? Give me a break.

(frozen) (no subject)

[oyceter]

Heh, yeah. I sort of boggle at the people who say "My town is all white; therefore, there is no racism!" Because, um... maybe it is all white for a reason? Just like maybe some countries don't have a large POC population because of immigration policy?

Sigh. But yes, and thank you.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

A couple of recommendations re racism in the UK: The first is the film Bend it like Beckham, about a Sikh family in the shadow of Heathrow and the daughter who wants to play soccer like David Beckham. If you haven't seen it, Oyceter, (you probably have but I'll mention it anyway for your friends list) it's a great movie for talking about Third Culture kids. I use it when I'm teaching post-colonial theory. Speaking of theory, one of the best videos on race, representation and the UK is Stuart Hall's Representation and the Media, which has made it onto youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTzMsPqssOY. A recommendation of a French film is Cache http://imdb.com/title/tt0387898/.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

It looks like they only uploaded the first five minutes of the Stuart Hall video, but you might be able to find the whole thing at a university library.

[jessibot.livejournal.com]

Racism is a huge problem in Australia, and I do believe we are starting to get a reputation overseas thanks to the past White Australia policy, and the detention centres also. There were also riots last year where a mob of white Australians were chasing and bashing anyone of Middle Eastern descent. Hundreds and hundreds of drunk, angry people.

It's disgusting, it's violent, and it's everywhere. Chinese immigrants get less of a raw deal than, say, Muslims or African refugees, but I am flabbergasted at the idea that any white Australian (of which I am one) could deny seeing the huge racism issues in our country.

[oyceter]

Thank you! I mean, it's not something I'm happy to hear, but I feel acknowledgment is the first step to working against racism, so.. yes.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

i know deep down taht you just made this post because of my evil negro mind control powers, but thanks anyway!

:-P

[oyceter]

It's so true ;).

[heresluck]

What really snapped racism in the UK into focus for me was reading Salman Rushdie's Imaginary Homelands, which includes essays that deal with (among other things) the racist implications of Thatcher's imperialist rhetoric as well as experiences of racism that are, shall we say, less rhetorical. In many ways Rushdie is more concerned with imperialism than racism (although of course they are intimately interconnected), but... yeah. That was the book that started enabling me to see and hear the other stuff that was out there to see and hear, if that makes sense.

[oyceter]

Oh! I should read that, that sounds really good!

But yeah... I just sort of boggle because racism and imperialism are so intimately intertwined that given our post-imperialist world, how could we possibly have already gotten rid of racism? And also (you are not saying this at all! but i am frustrated) I look at the people saying that "racism against black people is solely a US issue and saying Brits or others are racist against black people is imposing US cultural values," because, um, hi, brutal colonization of Africa?

[veejane.livejournal.com]

America deals with race in particularly American (and convoluted, and possibly even weird) ways, but that doesn't mean that other countries don't have to deal with race at all! I mean, for one thing, how much of the world imports American movies and TV shows? They may absorb the US cultural history of racism in different ways from the ways Americans use, but that stuff doesn't all just bounce off. And that's not even counting anything outside of contemporary, imported pop culture.

The privilege may be shaped differently; its terms of discussion may be different; but, that doesn't mean race, and underlying racist attitudes, have just been magically vanquished.

[oyceter]

Yes! Oh the joys of US pop culture being exported...

I think it's particularly pernicious when you have places in which people may not encounter black people often at all, and so, media impressions consist of how they usually see black people.

And, of course, just the fact that we live in a global culture and like you say, these things get around.

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

probably thinking in the back of my head that white privilege didn't exist in Taiwan because white people were the clear minority

After living in Beijing for six months I wonder if I can claim that, although I'm exempt from majority privilege, my white privilege is pretty much intact? (If not reinforced.) I ask because usually in these discussions white privilege equals the privilege of being the majority (for obvious reasons)-- but while that's not the case when living in China, I still feel I benefit in very distinct and obvious ways not just because I am foreign, or a native English speaker, but because I am white.

I'm drawing the whole thing back to the white experience, sorry. I know you're interested in discussions about racism in other countries, but I have to agree whole-heartedly when you said:

But within the global framework, I'm also betting that overall, that white person is seen as having more power and money than a POC.

Any discrimination or antagonism I've experienced could be, I've felt, more easily traced back to the fact that I'm a child of wealth and privilege (not just racial) in a country which is still struggling with third-world status. (That is, being labeled or perceived as such.) Course, I understand the two are intertwined in the global mindset... I'm really outclassed in this kind of discussion, honestly; I usually try to sit back and observe what other people are saying, as I feel miles away from having truly informed opinions. I just wanted to put out there what little I could contribute.

Also:

Sometimes I feel the English manage to, um, intellectualize (right word?) their racism -- while living in London I witnessed a televised debate about the increasing multiculturalism of the city and whether or not multicultural societies were doomed by default. It was all very calm and well-spoken exchanges, with no one looking like a crazed fanatic, and yet beneath all this composed, lucid debate was the fact that they were entertaining the issue of preventing the immigration of or even the eviction of peoples based on ethnic background.

And this was London, were supposedly all the erudite free thinkers come to play. I'd wonder what the situation was like in less urban areas, but I have family there and I already know.

[seaya.livejournal.com]

Have you heard of this story?

http://www.harinderveriah.com/articles9.html

The wife of (white) British journalist Martin Jacques died in Hong Kong, and then he sued over racism. If you read that it gives more details. This is the example I had to trot out ages ago the last time there was a big dustup about racism being "only in the states."

Jacques has also written an article about the global hierarchy of race which is really useful and is good to keep in mind. Here is one copy of it:

http://whiteprivilege.com/2003/09/20/the-global-hierarchy-of-race/

Whites are the only race that never suffers any kind of systemic racism anywhere in the world. And the impact of white racism has been far more profound and baneful than any other: it remains the only racism with global reach.

Just one quote from it.

/me shoves the webpage down a few throats of people who claim racism is a "U.S. thing".

Brick attached?

[jiawen]

There is definitely racism in Taiwan. I think I started laughing when I heard someone say that (I think it was) Taiwanese people (that is, people whose ancestors came to Taiwan more than 50 years ago) were lazy and untrustworthy. I laughed because I think I had, by that point, heard someone of every group say or imply that same thing about someone of every other group. Mainlanders, Taiwanese, Hakka, aborigines, foreigners... Well, come to think of it, I don't think I heard many stereotypes that aboriginal folks have about other groups in Taiwan, because I didn't know very many aboriginal folks. Anyway, though, there is tons of racism in Taiwan.

[thomasyan.livejournal.com]

There is definitely racism in Taiwan.

Hell yeah. I was there with my family the summer before I went to college. At one point (at a bus station?) we were sitting down, and a relative poked me. "Look, look! Black people! They say that Chinese+Black mixtures produce the ugliest babies!" I really didn't know how to react to this nonsense.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

There is no hierarchy of oppression. They intersect and feed off each other. So anti-Muslim sentiment is a huge issue where you live (and probably in a lot more places as well). That doesn't mean that racism is not important. And I don't think saying racism is an issue means that anti-Muslim sentiment is not important, particularly when the two often intertwine to devastating effect.

This is very true on the UK on a host of levels. I lived in a historically white-only deep rural town in the UK where many people were quite foully racist. Part of this was because they read the rants against immigration in the Sun and the Daily Mail, but it was also because they had been primed to hate the foreign because the area had a strong tradition of very bellicose English nationalism driven by traditional hatred of the Welsh.

Similarly at present in Britain there's a great deal of right-wing anti-immigrant propaganda that starts off by complaining about the recent spike in immigration driven by the entry of poorer Eastern European countries into the European Community and consequent migration into the richer West in search of work, and then elides it with non-white immigration and British-born non-white people in such a way that it's easy to miss it completely and very difficult to see exactly where the transition is once you're alert to it.

But although it didn't happen on any of the threads you've linked to (some of which are jaw-dropping like claiming that people in all-white communities aren't racist) I have seen American anti-racist activists on LJ and elsewhere respond to discussion of discrimination against members of traditionally oppressed white cultures in Europe with flat denial and instant accusations of conscious bad-faith-argument on part of the European person. While inter-white cultural discrimination is qualitatively different from racism by being less inescapable (as people can assimilate by changing accent, changing recognisable family or personal names)it does exist and it is extremely violent at times. In the English/Welsh case, the era when Welsh children were punished in schools for using their first language is within living memory. In the region of London where I live, it's become quite common for Eastern European people to be beaten or stabbed for being "Poles" come to take people's jobs and houses. So one shouldn't reject the concept, not least because of the ways that I've pointed out in which it helps to promote racism.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Oh and before anyone else starts arguing otherwise, anti-Muslim prejudice in Britain is, overwhelmingly, a smokescreen for racism. Although before Americans start getting smug about their better assimilation of Muslims, maybe they should do more to protest American writers like Mark Steyn who make a speciality of terrifying Americans with ridiculous tales of Muslim domination of European countries, while whipping up racism in Europe for their American partisan objectives.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Another highly recommended link - Pickled Politics (http://www.pickledpolitics.com/), a group blog by and for people from a South Asian background in the UK. See also their blogroll.

[oyceter]

Oh, thanks!

[edroxy.livejournal.com]

Great post.

I don't think any French person could ever clame that there is no racism in France. Though I do think that a lot of the persons who don't live in Paris or any other of the big cities of the country don't think of themselves as racist and haven't had the chance to prove themselves one way of the other because they have never come across a PoC. For instance, my parents have a house in this very small village in France and, when we go there, my father is the only black man in the entire village! That means that the only way for the rest of the persons in the village to have any kind of knowledge of PoC is, most probably, through television... and considering the way PoC, and more precisely people from North Africa are portrayed in the medias in France, the way our current president has refered to the people living in the suburbs (as those are mostly PoC) as basically delinquants (though in a much ruder form), really that's not a good thing by any means.

Racism is different in France for historical reasons. In the US for instance, African Americans (I'm talking about blacks because I'm taking the example of the African Diaspora) have had to fight for lands, laws, jobs etc because they've always lived alongside white people. It's not the case for black people in the French West Indides. They had a space, a territory of their own. I'm not saying there isn't racism in the French Caribbean or that people there didn't experience white imperialism, I'm just pointing out that the situation was different and that that lead to differences on the continent. It explains why so many people who live outside of big cities in France have no experience of PoC and are more comfortable thinking about them as people living in former colonial territories.

Anyway, it's always interesting to cross experiences and thanks for reminding us that racism is an international issue.

[oyceter]

Though I do think that a lot of the persons who don't live in Paris or any other of the big cities of the country don't think of themselves as racist and haven't had the chance to prove themselves one way of the other because they have never come across a PoC.

*nods* Yes, very much so. And it's easy to ignore the racism in the media and around you, particularly when it takes the form of keeping POC out of media; an all-white movie doesn't look that odd if you're from an all-white town, but of course it's still the product of a racist media, like you mention above.

[oursin.livejournal.com]

Good grief. I can see that racism in the UK, Australia, Canada, etc, may take different forms and look different from US racism - such that it's not always appropriate to apply certain models from the US situation to other cultures. Also, it's not always helpful to read back contemporary concerns into different historical periods (but it never is, whatever the issue). Just because class is much more explicit in the UK (and much less articulated in e.g. US and Australia) doesn't make it the only dynamic of oppression and discrimination.

I look around my workplace (which has a model equal opportunities policy in place), and although it's not entirely the case (e.g. Asian and mixed-race colleagues on the Library staff), the darker faces are nearly all those of security staff or cleaners and the professional and office staff are nearly all white, from a range of European or former Colonial countries.

[oyceter]

Oof, yes. I think the latest incarnation has been that critique of the portrayal of Martha in the New Who is American cultural imperialism because racism against black people isn't an issue in the UK. To which I roll my eyes.

[wordebeast.livejournal.com]

Aside from the broader discussion of white-black-asian (yellow? haha, as an Asian person myself, this makes me laugh) etc race, your note on "racism in Taiwan" reminds me of how "intra" Asian race problems are so bound up in nation, and how they come to play all odd and complex in an international discourse.

Compared to places where the discussion of race is more "mainstream," it's difficult to bring up how they play out in other spaces. I find it much easier to discuss race in the US than in the UK, and definitely less in the Netherlands (where most people can be posterchildren for the worse kind of "colorblind"), and almost nonexistent in Japan or Korea or Taiwan.

It's never easy, but it is comparatively easier to talk about race where the dominant majority is white. As if discussions about racism from white people, though never easy to get across to people who don't get it, is accepted/acceptable in the academy. But with recent (if only the last 100 years) history to still absorb, racism from people who have been "victims" of global, national, institutional oppression takes a while. As if, when you talk about it, you're betraying "the cause" before the cause can stand on its own. Which leads to exacerbating current problems (how North East Asian sets itself over South). It leads to closing down talk about abuse of Philipino or Vietnamese or Laotian illegal immigrants in Hong Kong or Taipei or Seoul, because it, well, sometimes I think it's easier for white scholars to say "Well, Asian people are racist to EACH OTHER" and implicitly resume their former line of thinking, which is condescending, racist, and almost condones an unsympathetic treatment of historical injustices, or even go so far to dismiss them.

My friends and I (academics) can sigh till the roofs come down about (otherwise sweet, but very blind) white students who complain about being discriminated against in a PoCo lit class. But it plays out on a different plane of odd+stupid when white kids complain to me about being discriminated against in Beijing or Seoul or Tokyo. Well, yes, all those dominant Asian people, huh. (the sympathy is strained at best, though I know how stridently racist Asian people are and can be, the dynamic shifts there)

I don't think it fits very well into the second part of your post, as it only wandered off on its own based on the first part, so I must apologize. I think it came up with a recent conversation with a friend from Taiwan who was saying that the most noticeable thing in Taipei recently is the indigenous Taiwanese sentiment toward the Chinese, and how the resentment is bubbling more and more these days.

The Double Moral Standard...

[bellatrys.livejournal.com]

You see this with antifeminism as well:

think it's easier for white scholars to say "Well, Asian people are racist to EACH OTHER" and implicitly resume their former line of thinking, which is condescending, racist, and almost condones an unsympathetic treatment of historical injustices, or even go so far to dismiss them.

It's the old requirement for a woman, or a non-white man, to be TWICE as good - AT LEAST - as a white man, to "deserve" THE SAME rights and treatment in the workplace. Only on a group-wide scale.

[(Anonymous)]

Hello, I'm a non-LJ user who often reads your journal (I'm truly impressed by you!) and wanted to comment on this, because the denial of racism in the UK is an issue of particular importance to me.

I think part of the problem, for part of the population, is the relative homogeneity of large swathes of the UK. My parents live in one of the most diverse areas in the country, but I attend a Scottish university which (like Scotland on the whole) is very, very white. Postgrad scientist friends of mine there recently went to the States for conferences and access to particular telescopes, and returned troubled by racism they had observed: I won't go into details, but essentially a certain extent of unofficial segregation. The immediate follow-up comment was that this would never happen here. They have never perceived it happening 'here' since they live in a very white area, and the few non-whites they do meet are usually either restaurant owners (the racial politics of restaurants, and of 'going out for an Indian', is another, deep, deep can of worms) or are amongst the few non-white students/academics. However, racism still exists amongst the students, and in particular, students from various parts of East Asia are generally criticised, en bloc, for their failure to integrate. I probably don't need to tell you that 'integrate' often seems like a kind of short hand for 'behave like us, the white people', but I shall also say that these students are, I believe, paying a great deal more for their education at the university than anyone from within the EU, which I feel makes this attempt to dictate their social lives doubly stupid and offensive.

Briefly, on unofficial segregation: while my parents' area in some ways deals better with race, at my secondary school, while there was great diversity amongst the pupils, most of the teachers were white, and most of the cleaners were black. And I could say masses more about schools, and about children, where there is so much that needs to be done, but I don't want to stray too far beyond the subject.

I suspect another part of the 'doesn't happen here' problem is connected to, er, complications in our national identity. This gets even more complicated when you turn to the Scots and the Welsh, whom we have historically exploited, oppressed and and treated in a rather nasty manner for fun and profit, but who then came to be heavily involved in, and to profit heavily from Empire and the Slave Trade. So I'll just talk about England, where there is a kind of cultural neurosis with regard to the US and its heavy influence on our culture. I suspect there may be a tendency to relocate certain cultural problems to the States in our thinking, where problems tend to be more visible to us, if only because of the benefit of distance. This thinking has sometimes been manipulated against problems such as racism, by stirring up fears that we are becoming more like the States - or, more like our vision of the States - in that particular respect. For example, in recent concern about schools becoming less diverse, articles were printed such as the one here, where the US is used as a kind of attention-catcher in ther first paragraph: http://education.guardian.co.uk/raceinschools/story/0,,2090209,00.html

And finally, as noted above, we do have some very clever politicians who know their audience, and are very good at sounding civilised about very uncivlised things - and about half the population are troubled by them, and about half, terrifyingly, aren't.

I'm too English not to want to end this by saying that, still, we're a good sort, on the whole, but I'm not sure that I would believe me.

[oyceter]

Hi! And thank you for commenting; that was all very interesting and helpful. I hope I unscreened this when I first read it this morning; the screening's just meant to catch spam and trolls.

I won't go into details, but essentially a certain extent of unofficial segregation. The immediate follow-up comment was that this would never happen here.

Hee. Because living in a very white area is by no means the result of unofficial segregation ;). Like you say, it just makes it harder to tell.

Also, thanks for the link to the Guardian article!

I suspect there may be a tendency to relocate certain cultural problems to the States in our thinking, where problems tend to be more visible to us, if only because of the benefit of distance. This thinking has sometimes been manipulated against problems such as racism, by stirring up fears that we are becoming more like the States - or, more like our vision of the States - in that particular respect.

That's really interesting, and it makes a lot of the defensiveness about "That's only in the US and not here (for any given value of "here")" make more sense. Not more excusable, but just... I can see how the twisted logic works. And of course it's tangled in resentment of US superiority.

Um, I wish I had more to say, but most of it is just sort of flailing at your comment and saying "what you said." So: what you said!

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Hmm, just a ponder here but I wonder if while there is a certain arrogance in framing debates in an American context (something that occasionally causes my eyes to roll but is understandable) there is also a similar one in assuming that all dicsussions about racism are about white privilege. And no I'm not trying to throw in some sort of "white people are victims too" blather I'm talking about leaving the white people out of it altogether.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

That is a logical fallacy known as "tu quoque": You did it, too!

Nobody has said that all discussions about racism are about white privilege. People *have* said that this particular discussion about racism is heavily colored with white privilege. Witness the people who are saying that racism is not a serious problem in Australia and Great Britain -- the only way in which it is possible to believe this is if you are white (not to mention deliberately oblivious.)

[keilexandra]

As a child, I lived in Newfoundland (Canada) for five years and basically grew up there (aged 3-8). The racism there was subtle and no one talked about it, but it was present nevertheless. Though my elementary school was small (and private w/ nominal fee since there weren't any public schools), there was one black student from Africa and all the teachers were white. Plus two Asian students--me and a boy I knew. I feel for that lone black girl, because even as a clear minority I still thought she was "weird" due to the color of her skin. She wasn't ostracized, but she was clearly "different." (And I was friends with the other Asian boy mainly because our parents knew each other. All the Asian people knew all the other Asian people--inherent racial unity, I guess?)

Not even touching on the racism against Inuit peoples, because I'm woefully uneducated on that aspect.

[oyceter]

The racism there was subtle and no one talked about it, but it was present nevertheless.

Oh man, yes. And of course, it makes it that much easier to deny when pointed out. For years, I thought I was crazy for being offended by things.

Then, of course, even when you do have something as flagrant as Don Imus, you still find people who defend it!

All the Asian people knew all the other Asian people--inherent racial unity, I guess?

Hee, yes. I'm perpetually amused by how my community in Taiwan and the one here are so closely tied, despite the entire Pacific Ocean being between them. And I think a banding together, as they're already being excluded from the white groups. And sharing culture and language and food.

[fantasyenabler.livejournal.com]

This entire discussion is interesting to me, primarily because I grew up in an area where matters of a race are a major concern (Mississippi) and have since lived in places where matters of race are so well-hidden, one could almost believe they do not exist (England and rural Pennsylvania to name two). I can honestly say that after years of hearing through the media that racism was mostly a "Southern Problem," it was a shock to hear Yankees use horribly derogatory terms for Black and Asian people and to hear working class Brits complain about their "Asian problem." I had quite naively assumed that racism was something I could escape through a simple matter of geography. I soon learned that this was plainly not true, and that even after years of living in a Delta town, with its unofficial "White Side" and "Black Side," that I still could be horrified by what people from the outside had to say.

In a way, it almost makes me think that blatant racism is preferable to closet racism. My friends and I dealt with it on a day-to-day basis and told each other that we'd see to it that "things would be better once all the old diehards die off." We were working to get past the psychological stumbling blocks of our parents. In these other places, it's not so easy for me to see any similar types of efforts taking place.

[oyceter]

In a way, it almost makes me think that blatant racism is preferable to closet racism.

I know what you mean! I get so frustrated at things like aversive racism, because people dismiss it because it's not blatant. I keep wanting to say, "Just because you're not committing hate crimes doesn't mean that your overall societal structure isn't racist."

(frozen) (no subject)

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

I've also seen this coming from Australians and Canadians, and I'm sure it has come from basically anyone living in a non-US country as well.

I keep on asking this question, and I'm not saying it hasn't happened. But where has any Australian said in LJ land that racism doesn't exist in Australia?

I'm not trying to be unreasonable. But statements like this, without any backup, it's hearsay and it's not not really fair.

Or are you just saying Australians in general? I haven't heard of this, but that really wouldn't surprise me.

(frozen) (no subject)

[oyceter]

This is going to be awkward, and I apologize in advance!

I will say that I haven't seen outright statements that racism doesn't exist in Australia, or if I have, I can't recall the exact place and time.

On the other hand, some comments in Hth's post made me twinge a bit, including yours at times, particularly in the thread starting here: http://hth-the-first.livejournal.com/53171.html?thread=910259#t910259

I respect what you're saying, and I also appreciate the POV that you're bringing to the discussion. What pings me are the statements about treating people as individuals and finding nationality to be more important than race, gender or class. I believe very much that it is true in your case, but I think the second statement in particular can be seen as overlooking very real disparities in power that happen because of race, gender and class.

Frex, for me, I've found that when I am in the company of women, I tend to focus more on my race and nationality; whereas if I'm in a group of Taiwanese men, I focus more on my gender. And I tend to not focus on class much at all, but that is because I am privileged in that respect and can afford to forget it.

Just to clarify: I don't read your statement as saying that racism, sexism or classism doesn't exist, and I don't believe that you believe that. But I do think that privileging nationality above them can be seen as privilege -- possibly you feel that your nationality is what differentiates you from a large chunk of fandom at times so you focus on that? And I fully sympathize with that and think that fandom is incredibly America-centric and that being American is a huuuge privilege.

I guess what I am saying is that just because nationality may feel like the big sticking point for you, it's not necessarily the case for others, and that POC of other nationalities, probably experience both forms of discrimination and can't separate the two out. And of course, the effect is multiplied the more axes of oppression a person experiences.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Insular, island dwelling race with substantial immigrant populations and a recent history of colonialism? It would be madness to say that Britain does not have racism. It does, and it sounds like a case of white priviledge in full action to suggest that it doesn't exist or it's not deeply rooted in many people's attitudes, just the same as sexism. Often it's caused by sheer ignorance, not actual malice, but, well, that doesn't make a lot of difference I think.

[oyceter]

Hee! I am much less inclined to be lenient about ignorance these days, but that is because I am cynical and frustrated. Well, also because people use it as an excuse a lot, which really dilutes the effectiveness of it!

[lavendertook.livejournal.com]

Great analysis--thanks for this good essay.

[oyceter]

Thanks for reading!

[alias_sqbr]

But..but..I'm a white australian, and I've been saying Australia is racist for ages and here you are saying it's only non-whites saying it, and, and...YOU'RE OPPRESSING MEEEE!!!!

*cough*

By which I mean, yes, absolutely :)

Personally I've found being involved in american-centred racism discussions useful in that I can think about it in a more emotionally detached reasonable way than australian race discussions (not that those come up much in local fandom :/) and then apply these ideas to my experiences here and see how they match and differ. Afaict I haven't said anything too offensively ignorant. Also a better understanding of how things work over there means I am a better educated consumer about the source of most of my entertainment, ie the fact that there are in fact latinos in LA (who knew?)

On the other hand, I think an international perspective can be helpful even when just disucssing america, even if it does create a LOT of misunderstandings. More perspectives=better, imo.

As a side note, something I personally find a bit annoying is that not only are most of the white aussies fans I know not interested in discussing race, afaict neither are most of the non-white ones(*). Admittedly it might just feel this way because there aren't that many non-white fans I know well enough to feel comfortable bringing up the subject with since I'm horribly tactless, and maybe the others don't want to bring it up or get involved in the ongoing discussion (there is a neonazi in my uni's sff club. Guh!) becuase then they'd be The NonWhite Voice and it's all a bit depressing and intimidating. Which I guess is fair enough. Really I'm just irritated at my husband for not being interested when I feeling like ranting about racism :D (he's half indian, but usually quite comfortably steeped in apathetic white privelige)

Anyway, sorry, bit of a tangent, I've recently been pondering about how the fact that Australia is 90% white means that although, proportionally, nonwhites care a lot more about racism than whites do, the anti-racism etc movements still end up being very white dominated, especially those to do with the indiginous population. This means you end up with charming policies like literally invading aboriginal settlements with the army "for the good of the children". It also meant I found your implication that "australians who care about race=not white australians" a little jarring and had a brief moment of self righteous white person ire which I then satirised in my intro.

(*)Although some certainly are

[oyceter]

POC and allies! I swear I noted the allies, because some of the people posting (rydra_wong!) are white.

I wonder if the small percentage of POC contributes to the general reluctance to discuss racism? Because then it's probably harder to form communities of POC, which means it's easier to be the only POC in a class/work team/etc., which makes is so hard to speak up. Especially if you've gone through your entire life always being the only POC around and being told constantly that you're making stuff up or being too sensitive if you ever bring up racism.

[poilass.livejournal.com]

*Yes*. I remember coming across some comments about there being 'no racism in the UK' last year, I think, and wondering what alternate universe they lived in. I wish I had replied to them at the time. (I was planning for IBAR this year to post some links about racism in the UK, but I see rydra_wong has already hit everything I was going to, and more).

I will save this post I think, for the next time I come across that argument.

[oyceter]

(I was planning for IBAR this year to post some links about racism in the UK, but I see rydra_wong has already hit everything I was going to, and more).

More links are always good! I find I know woefully little about racism on an intl. level and I desperately need to read up.