Racism on an international scale

[oyceter]

This is directly related to several comments seen lately regarding racism on an international scope, most of which have been a part of the conversation about racism and Martha in the New Who. But I'm also writing this because I've seen these arguments come up before in the past as well, only I am too lazy to find all the links.

(From last I saw, there was a lot of dialogue going on in all of the threads, so I am pointing people there as reference and not as an invitation to pile up. The link above are also just examples that were fresh in my mind; again, I've seen this many other places as well.)

I was going to save this for Intl. Blog Against Racism Week, but hey, why not kick things off early?

Disclaimers like whoa!

Despite having largely grown up in Taiwan, I've spent a lot of time in the US as well, and I went to a school in Taiwan in which most of the English teachers were American and many of the students moved there from America, like me. So my worldview is very America-centric, and I am probably going to say some stupid things. I say this not to excuse myself, because really, there is no excuse for ignorance, but to just say I know I have blinders on.

I also in no way support American cultural imperialism, which is alive and well, and I fully agree that the fandom circles I have experience with are largely American-centric and that being American carries a ton of power and privilege that is often ignored by those who have it. That said...

I'm incredibly disturbed by this trend of white British people either denying that racism exists in the UK or protesting that other oppressions are more important and serious than racism. I've also seen this coming from Australians and Canadians, and I'm sure it has come from basically anyone living in a non-US country as well.

I fully support and agree with the notion that racism manifests itself in different ways, shapes and forms in other countries. I also fully support and agree with the notion that racism in all countries is complicated by oppressions of all sorts, particularly oppressions of class, nationality, and religion.

BUT.

None of this means that racism doesn't exist in [insert country here].

Last year, I think coffeeandink asked me about racism in Taiwan. This was after the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of DOOM and after I had been thinking more about racism and and race. I flippantly said something about there being none, probably thinking in the back of my head that white privilege didn't exist in Taiwan because white people were the clear minority, and that Taiwan was monoracial, and that for me, Taiwan's most important political issues had more to do with sex, class and China. And I'm sure when I said that, I fully believed it and didn't think I was oppressing or denying anyone.

Of course, I believed it and was able to not see racism because in Taiwan, I am a member of the race in power. And in Taiwan, people of other races are made nearly invisible because they are comparatively few in number, because they have basically no visible positions of power in the government, and because, surprise, surprise, their issues are seen as "marginal" and "unimportant." My not seeing them didn't mean they weren't there. It just meant I was blind to them, because I had the privilege to do that.

Perceived invisibility and actual non-existence are two very different things.

For a long time, I believed it when people in the UK and Australia and Canada and etc. told me race wasn't an issue there.

But you know what? Most of the people telling me race wasn't an issue were members of the privileged race there. And a very short time reading around anti-racist communities showed that there were lots of vocal, non-American POC and allies who talked about racism in their own countries. Five seconds on Google pull up lists of anti-racism organizations around the world, and, yes, in the UK. Reading through them, many of the details are different (ex. British Asians vs. Asians in Australia and how the term "Asian" calls to mind different groups of people and of course how the experience of British Asians and Asians in Australia are different). But the overall framework of oppression and privilege has a striking similarity to that of racism elsewhere.

And quite frankly, when I hear from a set of people with privilege and power that racism doesn't exist, and then when I hear from another set of people who are living as POC in those very places or are speaking out as anti-racists, I believe that second set of people more.

I do not think the first set of people are willfully lying, just as I wasn't deliberately deceiving people when I said there was no racism in Taiwan. But I do think that they have the privilege to not see the oppression that they are benefitting from, just as I was blind to oppression of people-who-were-not-like-me.

The lack of racism is a lot more than the non-existence or scarcity of racial minorities, particularly when historically, the lack of racial minorities can usually be traced back to genocide, colonization, deportation, and racially-based immigration policy. This, by the way, also applies to people claiming that their city/state/province/region isn't racist, though then, the reasons are probably compounded by income disparities and white flight (yes, US term I am using as a descriptive shortcut).

Furthermore, I think people who say that racism in their country is nowhere near as important as another ism are perpetuating a false dichotomy. There is no hierarchy of oppression. They intersect and feed off each other. So anti-Muslim sentiment is a huge issue where you live (and probably in a lot more places as well). That doesn't mean that racism is not important. And I don't think saying racism is an issue means that anti-Muslim sentiment is not important, particularly when the two often intertwine to devastating effect.

Also, to take this from a country-specific POV to an international POV, racism is an international issue and internationally, white privilege is a problem. Look at the division of wealth among nations; look at the political power. But over a century of white imperialism takes a long time to erase. (And no, citing Japan as the exception doesn't actually prove anything, save that it's an exception.) Yes, a white person abroad in a non-white country will very likely experience racial prejudice. But within the global framework, I'm also betting that overall, that white person is seen as having more power and money than a POC.

Bringing up how your country isn't racist in an argument about racism looks a lot like other tactics for derailing discussions about racism, particularly when other people of your nationality have been actively participating in anti-racist activity for quite some time. It looks a lot like someone popping into a thread about sexism in your country solely to say that their country has no sexism and that sexism is a concern of your country, and your country alone.

Which is to say: I (and I suspect most people blogging about this) welcome comments on how racism differs in various countries and on a global scale. But not on how racism doesn't exist or how talking about racism (particularly complaining about racist representations and stereotypes) in and of itself perpetuates racism.

Links:
- delux_vivens on the African diaspora
- spiralsheep on "Mammy" in Britain
- rydra_wong on racism in the UK
- shewhohashope on color-blindness in the UK
- Links to international anti-racist sites here and here
ETA:
- The Global Hierarchy of Race
- Stop Trying to "Save" Africa
- Racism in UK media
(More useful links being posted in comments as well)

NOTE: I am screening all anonymous comments to this entry, and I will be freezing any threads that look troll-y.

Comments

[alias_sqbr]

But..but..I'm a white australian, and I've been saying Australia is racist for ages and here you are saying it's only non-whites saying it, and, and...YOU'RE OPPRESSING MEEEE!!!!

*cough*

By which I mean, yes, absolutely :)

Personally I've found being involved in american-centred racism discussions useful in that I can think about it in a more emotionally detached reasonable way than australian race discussions (not that those come up much in local fandom :/) and then apply these ideas to my experiences here and see how they match and differ. Afaict I haven't said anything too offensively ignorant. Also a better understanding of how things work over there means I am a better educated consumer about the source of most of my entertainment, ie the fact that there are in fact latinos in LA (who knew?)

On the other hand, I think an international perspective can be helpful even when just disucssing america, even if it does create a LOT of misunderstandings. More perspectives=better, imo.

As a side note, something I personally find a bit annoying is that not only are most of the white aussies fans I know not interested in discussing race, afaict neither are most of the non-white ones(*). Admittedly it might just feel this way because there aren't that many non-white fans I know well enough to feel comfortable bringing up the subject with since I'm horribly tactless, and maybe the others don't want to bring it up or get involved in the ongoing discussion (there is a neonazi in my uni's sff club. Guh!) becuase then they'd be The NonWhite Voice and it's all a bit depressing and intimidating. Which I guess is fair enough. Really I'm just irritated at my husband for not being interested when I feeling like ranting about racism :D (he's half indian, but usually quite comfortably steeped in apathetic white privelige)

Anyway, sorry, bit of a tangent, I've recently been pondering about how the fact that Australia is 90% white means that although, proportionally, nonwhites care a lot more about racism than whites do, the anti-racism etc movements still end up being very white dominated, especially those to do with the indiginous population. This means you end up with charming policies like literally invading aboriginal settlements with the army "for the good of the children". It also meant I found your implication that "australians who care about race=not white australians" a little jarring and had a brief moment of self righteous white person ire which I then satirised in my intro.

(*)Although some certainly are

[oyceter]

POC and allies! I swear I noted the allies, because some of the people posting (rydra_wong!) are white.

I wonder if the small percentage of POC contributes to the general reluctance to discuss racism? Because then it's probably harder to form communities of POC, which means it's easier to be the only POC in a class/work team/etc., which makes is so hard to speak up. Especially if you've gone through your entire life always being the only POC around and being told constantly that you're making stuff up or being too sensitive if you ever bring up racism.

[alias_sqbr]

Ah, I just came back from holiday and read all of a metafandom in a big swoop, which was lots of fun but made everything blur together in my head, apologies if my moment of irrational irritation was even more unjustified than I thought :)

Anyway, yes, thinking about race here after reading a bunch of american stuff I think our overwhelming whiteness really does stifle race discussions. In America you've got Martin Luther King and the black panthers etc, all these loud and implacable groups of black people making sure it is impossible to sweep race under the carpet. People might not like thinking about racism but they're forced to. I think it's why "racist" is such a loaded word in your country.

Here we have...Eddie Mabo I guess. But mostly we have Pauline Hanson and Jack Van Tongren or on a good day Bob Brown. (*)
I hang out with mostly fellow young liberalish types, but still if you accused most of them of racism they'd probably laugh and go "Yeah, I guess I am a bit."

I was at a party and a guy was making anti-asian remarks (which only I called him up on, hmmph), when I asked an asian friend who was there how she felt about it she said "Ah, it was just him being an idiot" which I think is the general attitude: racism is bad, but only as an individual flaw you shouldn't let get out of hand to the extent of offending other people, like telling obscene jokes or bad odour. It's not this big subtext to society, and getting up in arms about it is as wowsery as getting up in arms about people smelling bad.

I've been seriously pondering asking my flist (95% white and asian australians) if they've experienced much racism in fandom, but I can see it being a bit "You! Brown person! Educate me!" (an attitude I hadn't noticed in myself until reading some stuff on metafandom, and which I feel rather embarrassed about in retrospect) and the intimidation thing could enter into it too. Maybe I should do a poll with a "Just becuase I'm not white doesn't mean I give two hoots about racism, way to make culturally biased assumptions" option :)

Anyway, sorry to babble so in your lj, I've been pondering racism in australia a lot recently and your post kind of acted like a lightening rod :)

(*)There are plenty of other activists, but these are the ones people will have heard of

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

You know, I've also been thinking about racism in Australia lately, and I think all these discussions have been good, as in as far as that.

I also asked a couple of my co-workers from a different ethnic background about if they had come across any racism lately, or at all, and mostly it was 'yeah, but it wasn't any big deal, it was just morons being morons'. It isn't really much of a subtext, and nobody wants to talk about it as far as the intervention in the Northern Territory, especially in my job where we have to brief our...err, leader on the subject.

Did you watch 'Insight' on Monday night talking bout the abuse problem in the Territory communities, it's pretty interesting.

The transcript and all the info can be found here:

http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/

I really want to talk about this on LJ with fellow Australians, but I doubt many people would want to participate. But there certainly is a lot of err 'interesting' opinions on the subject.

[alias_sqbr]

Heh, I unfortunately always get too irritated by Insight since there's always a lot of people whose opinions I find trite and annoying. Which isn't a flaw in the program, that's what you get by genuinely reflecting the full range of POVs of the community, but it still means I don't watch it :) Maybe I'll give it a go when I'm feeling patient.

I keep seeing other non-americans saying "I'm not going to get involved in these american discussions of race, it's all too fraught" but I also find they're the only race discussions going and something is better than nothing. I've been pondering ways I can get more discussion of this sort of thing at Swancon (the big Perth con) but I'm pretty ignorant about both race and running panels and I'm not sure how to get other people interested.

I recently went on a trip to Singapore and Malaysia and it's the total opposite, they have a "tolerance, awareness, and pride in ones heritage through compulsory multiculturalism" policy which results in things like quotas for each race in every single apartment block and actually colourcoding their stadium seats by race. I'm not sure this is better, just different, I think it makes it difficult for people of mixed or exotic race and hinders fluid racial and cultural identities, but it does work against the "why can't they just be normal ie wannabe white" attitude we have here. Also I only know chinese singaporeans (the dominant group), malay and indian singaporeans might have a very different POV.

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

Heh, I unfortunately always get too irritated by Insight since there's always a lot of people whose opinions I find trite and annoying

I just found it interesting to hear the views of people from different Indigenous backgrounds. Although once again, they steered away from any talk of race. Which I think is, a strange thing about Australia. I wouldn't say bad per se, or good, just, different. It's probably something that needs a little more discussion. I think we're all under the strong illusion of the egalitarian nation, the concept of a 'fair go'.

I'm just trying to think, I've seen more prominent actual problems against indigenous peoples more then any other ethnic minority, but I believe the Sudanese immigrants are getting a bit of a hard time when they were relocated to the country. My ex-girlfriend didn't really have a huge problem, she's of native Peruvian descent, she was often mistaken for middle eastern, but she was more hassled because she's a woman of smaller stature then because of her colour, as I recall. She didn't really want to talk about racism and interestingly her parents both supported Pauline Hansen.

I keep seeing other non-americans saying "I'm not going to get involved in these american discussions of race, it's all too fraught"

I in part, kind of agree. I find that the Americans take the race discussion very seriously, and it's really easy to put one step wrong, or get misunderstood. I can understand for the most part, but it makes me very reluctant to get involved. Also, it's partly because I don't really want to discuss our local issues with the rest of the world. I appreciate learning how things work in the US, or the UK, or wherever, but I'm not going to take too seriously any advise or criticism from someone else, as they don’t really know the context of how things work here, and I don't really want to explain it. It's our business, and I'd rather talk to Australians about it.

I don't quite understand the eagerness of some Australians to air our dirty linen to everyone else, sometimes it appears, and this is my opinion, as if they want to be patted on the back for it, to join the 'see, Australis is racist too, it's just terrible' club. I don't see the point. It's a bit embarrassing, as if that's going to give them street cred to any other issues that's happening anywhere else. And at the end of the day nobody else is going to give a damn, everyone is too busy working out their own internal issues.

I've heard a little differently about Malaysia, at least from a colleague who worked in the embassy there, I've heard there is a a lot of institutional discrimination against Chinese Christians, in both Malaysia and Indonesia, considering that both nations are Muslim, and most of the Government is Muslim. In Indonesia this has resulted in clashes in some of the provinces which has involved massacres, and then there is East Timor. But I've only ever heard good things about Singapore in terms of multi-culturalism.

I also know that both nations, and probably a great deal of their citizens aren't too thrilled about Australia, because we're a living example of European colonialism, and we're Christian, and oh, we're involved in this war with the Americans in Iraq, which is seen as a war against Islam. No one is disputing that radical terror groups are growing in the area due, in part, to our foreign policy. (OK, maybe Mr Howard has a different idea, but whatever).

What can you do? Most Australians don't think much about our Northern neighbours, as much as they don't think about the Communities in the Northern Territory.

[alias_sqbr]

Well, personally I like finding out the ways other societies work (both the good and bad) since it's too easy to assume that the way things work here is Just The Way Things Are, and anyway find it interesting because deep down I'm a closet arts student :) I like telling other people about how Australia works on the assumption that they feel the same way, though I have to stop myself ranting about how much better america's electoral system would be with preferential voting :D

That said, I agree that a "Look at how much my country sucks" attitude is rather like the "My parents are meaner than your parents" contest beloved of teens. I haven't seen any australians do it but have seen it from lots of americans.

Mm, yes, sorry, I was mainly talking about Singapore since I wasn't in Malaysia very long and don't know anyone there very well, but what you're saying does match what I've heard. I had a bunch of chinese indonesian friends in high school who came to australia since they were barred from attending uni there for racist reasons. I don't think it's just the religious difference, the chinese tend to be richer and better educated so get the same sort of resentments jews did in europe, same with the indians in fiji.

By this point I think even the most insular australian can't help but be somewhat aware of the racial and cultural tensions in indonesia/east timor (they killed some of us you know), but they just respond to it by cancelling their holiday to bali and being a little more racist towards asians :/

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

I'm really interested in reading about issues overseas, but I don't really want to comment too much, because I'm sensitive to the fact that my knowledge isn't first hand, and I know how touchy people can get about their nation. In fact, I'm a very sensitive person in that regards, I'm an unapologetic nationalist, and extremely pragmatic about that.

I've worked in Government now for over 10 years (OMG, *sigh*) and become more centred in my political leanings, as I've realised that extreme radical views are counter productive. The Government is conservative because most Australians are conservative, not extremely so, but more more right of centre. But I feel good that we're much more progressive here then, say, most of Asia, or even the United States.

It's nice to have ideals on how society should be run, but I don't know how many people actually realise how hard it is to push through reform, and the deals and compromises that need to be achieved to make them. I keep wanting to ask people 'OK, you want the Government to focus on this issue, that's great, please tell me what you want the State, or Federal Government to drop off their current list of priorities, so they can afford to do this, and please tell me how you're going to sell this to the Australian people, and how it will look in the front page of the local paper?'

If you want more money to change immigration laws or the changes required to become a republic, then do you want to take money away from child safety, or mental health or the media campaign to conserve water and help drought stricken communities? Or, do you want the Government to take more money out of your income? A lot of people don't think about that, they just expect things to happen, and it's a bit annoying at times trying to make them understand that it's impossible for the Government to please everyone.

The Government has only so much money. It's not the best system ever, but it's one of the more effective ones in the world, and I keep thinking, despite everything, we must be doing something right, as we have the third highest standard of living in the world, after Norway and Iceland. And sure, we still have so many things to improve, but we should be proud of that, I know I am.

But in saying that, I'm still interested in all that has been said here. I disagree with some things, and I know some of the opinions I hold are unpopular, although generally I'm quite left wing. But I don’t think that makes me wrong, or that others are wrong. This really isn't about right or wrong, it's about shades of grey. It's about understanding the complexity of human experience, and perspective. And I think it works as long as people hold an open mind, and not shut down others because just because they are 'wrong, wrong, wrong, and dammit I'm right, because my experience is much more valid'. I've seen that from both sides, and I know I've been guilty of some kneejerk reactions (you'd think by now I'd learn not to make responses when tired, or stressed, as well as some really interesting thought provoking comments. Overall I think this is a positive thing to discuss.

[alias_sqbr]

Heh. See, I've also been getting more centrist as I get older (not so much just to the middle as out to the side a bit), but since I was basically brought up to be socialist I still have a ways to go. Then again, I start working for the government on Wednesday, I guess we'll see what I'm like in ten years :)

Anyway, while we plausibly disagree on the specifics I agree on everything you've said here about the difference between ideals and the practicalities of actually doing something. And I already offended someone today by posting before I'd had a chance to wake up so I totally get you there, luckily we were just discussing webcomics :)

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

I guess we'll see what I'm like in ten years :)

Cynical ;) I got an email from a co-worker just yesterday from Steve Brack's department with a link to his resignation from the Age five minutes after it was posted. It said 'And now you know as much as we do'.

Ha. Communication, not the best thing ever.

I wish I was less awake now, because I want to get all wanky and emotional on this comment and thread, but I'll be good. :(


http://stop-him.livejournal.com/39403.html

And now I'm crossing threads *I'm so broke and bored today*

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah, I thought about replying to that post and decided life was too short :)

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

I wasn't gonna, I was just following it, then someone said something supremely stupid (well, to my POV, so I had to say something) and then another person said even more stupid.

And then, blah, blah, blah. *sigh*

I should stop here, because we are totally spamming this thread, but if you want to email me on anything in the future, try danamaree on gmail dot com.

[alias_sqbr]

Heh, yes agreed :)

*apologises to oyceter and vanishes*

[oyceter]

Hee, no worries! I had to quickly reread b/c I remembered putting it in, but then, I remember a whole lot of stuff that isn't true ;).

And I'm glad to see more discussion on racism worldwide!