The Dark Knight

[oyceter]

I note that I did actually like the movie, and that I am a huge Batman fan and have been ever since I was seven and watched the dorky Adam West show and pretended I was the Batcycle when my sister was Batgirl (I was fueled by orange Tic Tacs). I also note that dark Batman appeals to the teenager in me, who read Dark Knight Returns at an incredibly impressionable age.

And yet...

Wow. So Rachel Dawes is the Woman in the Refrigerator for not one, but two men? Way to work in your misogyny while keeping the women in the film to a minimum.

Also, I'm so glad that the cowardly, money-grubbing, white-collar criminals are foreign Chinese people; the thuggish, street criminals are black; and that the mob is black, Italian, and Eastern European. *rolls eyes* It's great that there were some POC in secondary, non-criminal roles, but really, I think three minutes of a black police commissioner or Morgan Freeman's presence doesn't quite take the sting away from the implication that most criminals are POC. And even then, the biggest mastermind villain (Joker) is still white!

Despite my issues with how Rachel Dawes was handled, I very much liked what they did with Harvey Dent—my dad commented that Aaron Eckhart had the most to do in the movie, and I agree. That said, I wanted to slap Alfred for his decision to burn Rachel's letter, and I wanted to slap everyone who was all, "Gotham will be saved by a lie! Batman is so noble and heroic for walking off and being the bad guy!"

I cannot quite articulate why, as I do agree about the practical reasoning for covering Harvey Dent's crimes. Possibly it's because Batman's level of violence and property destruction (action movies really are fantasy) makes me scoff at the notion that Batman would even care about his reputation.

I think I may also be superhero-movie-d out; I'm tired of endless debate on what's moral or not for superheroes and wish that there were more of a deconstruction of superheroes and the entire action movie genre. Let's see how the Watchmen movie goes...

Comments

[sajia.livejournal.com]

I think Livejournal ate your post :(

[oyceter]

Doh! Back now!

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. It really freaks me out that 'Iron an' was considered somewhat positive because Pepper... didn't die and wasn't a complete idiot.

Oh, ladies. Are our standards so low?

[Not to mention that the film lost me with the international ring of terrorists who had no clear ideological goals. They just wanted to blow shit up for the hell of it? And then the white dude was the real criminal master-mind anyway. But then they had already lost me with the 'take out the trash' line.]

So, I clearly didn't like Iron Man, and I'm not planning to see The Dark Knight.

[oyceter]

I haven't seen Iron Man yet and have been debating whether not I should because of the portrayal of the terrorists. Sigh. My old Batman love got me to watch Dark Knight, but ... I am not sure how long my Batman love will last now. I am sad!

Also! I forgot, but I was so mad that when they had Commissioner Gordon's family in danger, all the focus was on his son. Dude! They could have at least had his daughter Barbara in there as a maybe shout-out to the Batgirl/Oracle fans out there!

Also also, I spent a lot of the movie thinking how they should totally make a movie about Oracle's origin story or do something on Huntress or the other women in the Batverse. Sigh.

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

Yes! I mean I don't want the terrorists to be portrayed as fluffy and misunderstood (because, say: THEIR PARENTS ARE DEAD) but at least let them have some kind of motivation? Terrorists are evil and hate our FREEDOM isn't, actually, enough.

(And the 'take out the trash' line is from an incredibly uncomfortable - for me, mainly - inter-action between Pepper and a reporter who had a one-nightstand with Tony)

There should be a BoP film! I've just started reading Birds of Prey, because my slight interest in Batman was killed by all the man-pain*. In my ideal world, Bruce could be a (crazy!) background character, and it would be the all-Babs-all-the-time, with occasional Huntress and Dinah, and Cass. Like the Birds, but with more Alfred (he's my kind of crazy. Quiet and English), and less creepy art**. And the new Blue Beetle should have joined!

* Yes, his parents are dead. But he could act like a human being about it.

** I know BoP isn't that bad compared to most superhero comics, but to my new eyes it's pretty wrong. Plus at least some of these super martial-artists should have greater muscle mass? I know it's possible for women to be lean and really strong... but all of them?

[karenhealey.livejournal.com]

Fellow BoP reader here! The art got MUCH less creepy when Ed Benes left the book. Are you reading through the trades, or have you started picking up the pamphlets?

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

I'm currently reading 'Of Like Minds' which is Gail Simone's first arc? It introduces Huntess, (who I love) and Huntress's costume (which I don't).

I've already read the first trade of The All-New Atom, which is written by Simone and it really impressed me, despite the fact that I'd only picked it up because I'd heard of Gail from the WiR thing and I thought it'd be easier to get into a new character. Which is the same reason I got into the (new) Blue Beetle, who I love a little too much, considering that he is a fictional 16 year-old boy.

That and a little bit of Batman (Murderer + Fugitive, Year One) which put me off Batman completely, is my entire experience of American superhero comics.

[karenhealey.livejournal.com]

Oh *yes*, you are right smack bang in the middle of the creepy creepy art. After I think three trades a couple of new artists start doing some of the work, and then the book gets Nicola Scott as permanent artist and it is wonderful. The women are still a little slender, but all of a sudden their faces are unique and no one talks from their butt and teenage girls actually look like teenagers.

Blue Beetle is superduperawesome. There is no too much loving for Jaime!

If you were looking for more recs, I can make some!

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

So there is light at the end of the tunnel!

I keep getting confused and annoyed by superhero comic art, because they keep changing artists, and I keep getting confused about who is who. I never had this problem with manga.

I am in the process of building a big list of recs. (http://shewhohashope.livejournal.com/104054.html) Superhero comics are okay as well.

[Are you the woman from girlsreadcomics? Because if so, you are part of the reason I moved from vaguely interested in feminist critique of (American) comics to actually reading them. I'd be annoyed, but you sort of introduced me to my fictional boyfriend, so you're off the hook]

And also, I rec The 99 without having seen it based on this post (http://brokenmystic.wordpress.com/2008/07/26/female-muslim-and-mutant-a-critique-of-muslim-women-in-comic-books-part-2-of-2/).

[karenhealey.livejournal.com]

That woman is me!

Who's your fictional boyfriend?

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

The new Blue Beetle! I'd have to fight Traci 13 for him, but she's also fictional.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Were they terrorists? I thought of them as warlords. They wanted regime change within a specific region and they were operating from a position of strength within it. If they had won, in a century they'd be as respected as George Washington or Simon Bolivar.

Agreed

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, I was certain they were warlords rather than terrorists.

[kate_nepveu]

I *liked* _TDK_, having resigned myself ahead of time to the WiR, and I found _Iron Man_ boring and spork-inducing. So don't go see it.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I sat there mentally yelling, "where the hell is Barbara!?!?"

[jennifergearing.livejournal.com]

Yes this. All through the scenes with the Gordon family, I was like "Who is this kid? Shut up, I want Babs!" Then got to the end and went "Oh hell no you did not just"

That said, now that I'm post film, I'm warming to the idea that *neither* kid is Babs, because continuity wise Babs is a teenager off at boarding school at this point anyway, so I'm going to pretend that's that and these are two other random Gordon children. *nodnodnodnodnod*

It's not like it's any less delusional than the other twists of logic I need for Batman (and much of the rest of DCU)

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that works. (It's a lot of work!)

[sienamystic.livejournal.com]

I actually liked the non-idealogue bad guys in Iron Man - the lead baddie simply wanted to be Alexander the Great, which I find a lovely time-honoured tradition for Big Bads. *g*

I actually think Pepper's role was pretty good - she wasn't just The Girl, she was a smart, active character in her own right. And *points to comment below* I think the "take out the trash" line was earned by the woman who was on the receiving end of it.

[samdonne.livejournal.com]

Hi. Sorry to invite myself in, but I saw this post on FF and I've been meaning to ask this of someone. I get the meaning from context, but where does the "Woman in the Refrigerator" reference come from?

I'm with you on the treatment of Rachel Dawes. I'm a Marvel girl, not DC, so I don't know how closely the Batman movies reflect the canon, but. The movie belonged to Dent and the Joker (and to Eckhart and Ledger); I get the need for the thematic parallels. But Bruce harping on Harvey being "the best of them all" when Rachel was standing right there? I kept thinking, Isn't she supposed to have spent her career fighting corruption, too? Why didn't he ever throw a fund raiser for her?

Less speechifying and hammering at the end would have been welcome, too.

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

I'm totally inviting myself in here: It's a reference to the Green Lantern's girlfriend or something, popularised by Gail Simone (http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/)

[samdonne.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Great read, especially the reactions.

[oyceter]

Gah, yes. I felt so bad for Rachel, whose career of course doesn't matter as soon as she starts dating someone!

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'd have to say I agree with this, except for the part where you enjoyed the movie. I really wanted to, but kept waiting to care about something (anything) and then the 2.5 hours were up and I just didn't. It was soulless to me.

[oyceter]

Heee! The more I think about it, the less I like the movie, thanks to the messaging at the end. Sigh. I want a Catwoman movie now. Well, one that follows the canon I mean.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

Since I hated the first Batman movie, I have been resisting efforts to persuade me to see the second. Sounds like I made the right choice -- I'm very tired of fantasy action movies.

[oyceter]

Um, yeah, I think if you hated the first one, you would have hated this one too. The speechifying at the end was worse than the first one, imho.

[bravecows.livejournal.com]

Oh, I wish you would watch Iron Man! Er, mostly because my flist adored it but I disliked it and the portrayal of Arabs/terrorists (in Iron Man, the same thing!) made me very uncomfortable, so I selfishly wish you'd watch it and spork. I, er, realise this is unlikely to make you actually want to watch it, though.

On Rachel: schiarire pointed out that there's actually no good reason within canon for Rachel NOT to be the Two-face character. Because if they wanted a noble crusading DA to turn to the dark side, there was already a perfectly good one there! But because she is a woman, she only gets to be the Girl, and then to be fridged. (Fortunately, there's always fanfic (http://schiarire.livejournal.com/410033.html).)

[oyceter]

Hee! I think I will end up Netflixing Iron Man just because I am curious! And then hopefully I will write it up for you ;).

I wish Rachel had been Two-Face! That would have been more interesting at the very least...

A bit off-topic

[(Anonymous)]

Interesting thought... while I'd be intrigued to see a female Two-Face, how different would our opinion be of her? Would the audience jump to the conclusion that "oh, she went crazy because she lost her pretty face"?

-Chris

[maerhys.livejournal.com]

I keep thinking how interesting it would have been had Rachel been saved and the one to become Two-Face. Oh well. It was pretty predictable. I also don't get the flailing over HL's performance, it was good, but I thought Morgan Freeman and possibly Gary Oldman put out the best of the cast.

The stereotypes were out in full-force, and did it bother anyone else the use of mentally ill people was glossed over like, uh, yeah no big deal. WTF? I don't know. I really wanted to like it, but the best thing I can say is that I really liked the score and I did like the burning of the letter and the hiding of the truth. It was a twist I hadn't seen in a while, even if the rationale didn't exactly make sense.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I really liked the burning of the letter, especially in context with Batman's decision to become the villain-- we tell lies to the people we love most.

[oyceter]

Sigh, Rachel as Two-Face would have been so cool! And very yes re: the disturbing use of mentally ill people. I think the letter bugs me slightly less now because it's a lie that doesn't particularly make a difference. I mean, it does to Bruce, but since Rachel and Harvey are dead, it's not a lie that would actively go about harming people. I still get nidgy about Batman and Commissioner Gordon's though, because of how high-handed it feels.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

As I said to viridian5 the other day, it's so tiring to have to balance your enjoyment of something over all the objectionable elements. I really did love the movie, but you're right about pretty much everything. (I did like burning the letter. I thought it was kind of sweet of Alfred.)

[oyceter]

I know! I have been avoiding almost all movies lately because of politics (21 and Kung Fu Panda for Asian issues, every single action movie ever for Islamophobia, etc.). Siiiigh.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I actually didn't mind Kung Fu Panda. For me, it was an affectionate riff on kung fu movies, and no character seemed particularly 'Asian-ized' as much as they were 'kung fu-ized.' Yes, the greater issue of appropriation comes into play, but it didn't bother me. And the toughest figher is female, which was kind of refreshing.

[oyceter]

Oh, that is good to know. Mostly I was just irritated that the lead role was given to Jack Black instead of an actual Asian actor. Siiiigh. Oh Holllywood, why?

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

Sadly, with Lucy Liu and Jackie Chan, it still has two more Asian good guys than almost any other Western action movies I've seen.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the mob scenes made me really uncomfortable.

[oyceter]

Yeeeeah. Sigh.

[sophia-helix.livejournal.com]

I had like fifteen different reasons to not really enjoy the movie, although I'd thought of the POC-criminals thing during the film and forgot about it later under further annoyances. Is it absurd that I'm most irritated that it's some big deal for Batman to never kill anyone, yet he flips semis on crowded downtown streets without worrying about how many people he's going to crush? (For the record: none. I watched closely, and the shot is hilariously staged so the truck flips neatly and perfectly down the center of the road, and the cars on either side of it barely even slow down.)

I like dark. I just don't think that "dark" means everyone speechifying about the difference between revenge and justice and what kind of hero does an ugly world need and blah blah blah without ever actually taking steps to resolve any of it.

[oyceter]

Bwahahaha, yes! I always think about collateral damage when it comes to action movies and heroes who are too morally upright to kill point blank but have absolutely no qualms re: massive destruction that very well may result in deaths.

I think your definition of dark and what isn't dark hits the nail on the head!

[furikku.livejournal.com]

I wanted to slap everyone who was all, "Gotham will be saved by a lie! Batman is so noble and heroic for walking off and being the bad guy!"

Yeah, the ending there didn't make much sense to me; I didn't get what difference it made, really. The massive property destruction probably helps in that respect.

Didn't notice the villains = PoC issue but, dammit, you're right! Argh! The whole thing is very "US WASP" centric. Ugh.

[oyceter]

ZOMG. Every time I see action movies set in big cities, I freak out a little: "Dude! You can't do that! Do you know how long they'll be fixing the subway and how many people will have to change their commutes?"