Tang Dynasty info needed!

[oyceter]

PSA: telophase is looking for info on the An Lu Shan rebellion and the fall of the High Tang, probably with an emphasis on how the political events of the time affected daily life, clothing details, military details and etc.

I am now so sad that a) I do not have university library, b) I am not in my beloved EAS library from college, and c) people do not know about Yang Guifei. I shouldn't feel such, given that I also didn't know much about it before majoring in EAS, but it just reminds me how little of my history is common knowledge in the States and worldwide. And I'm not talking about details; I'm talking about one of the most famous stories in Chinese history (am I exaggerating? I think it's pretty famous, right?) that has been retold for centuries and reinvoked time and time again (and that is a lot of time, given that it took place in 755 CE).

Also... it's the Tang Dynasty! I am too starry-eyed about it because of the enthusiasm of one of my Chinese lit. professors (who, btw, was AWESOME), but I have the same passion for it that people do for the Renaissance. It was just this amazing period and there were many cultures (at least for the time) mixing in Chang'an (modern-day Xi'an and the capital prior to the An Lu Shan rebellion) and there was the poetry and the flourishing of art and... wah. I really need to find a good book or five on Tang Dynasty and finally get around to reading the one I have on female Tang poets.

It's not just Chinese history -- there are references to Yang Guifei and the fall of the High Tang scattered throughout Japanese literature, though I am much less knowledgeable about Korean influences, particularly since Japan took a ton of influences from the Tang Dynasty (Kyoto is basically Chang'an reproduced, the kimono is based off Tang clothing, etc.).

It's not telophase or her commenters' faults at all and I do not mean this as a way to passive-aggressively call them out -- this is just a symptom of a larger problem that is everywhere, and if you couldn't tell from my completely dorktastic spamming of Telophase, I am very excited someone is asking about it!

And again, it's not really a surprise, given how I know how history and literature is edited down in the Western world (am not exonerating the non-Western world, btw, but given the global dominance of Western culture, non-Western ones have to have a better baseline knowledge of Western history) and given how stupid I am about Black, Latino, and Native history and culture and literature just in the US alone, and that doesn't even begin to encompass how ignorant I am about African history, South American history, non-Chinese-or-Japanese Asian history, and all of the above cultures and literature and...

I wish I could download knowledge into my brain.

Comments

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Not that my knowledge of Chinese history is much greater than "Legendary Yellow Emperor, then a bunch of stuff, then the Mongols, then the Treasure Fleet, then the Opium Wars, then the Cultural Revolution" with vague mentions of the Boxer Rebellion somewhere in there (which always led to interesting images in my head of boxing gloves and trunks, as I'm sure you can see), plus a firm opinion that the Manchu hairstyle for men was one of the more unfortunate moments in fashion history, but ... I'm rather surprised I'd never heard of it. And that there don't seem to be any books other than the Pulleyblank available in English on it.

OTOH, I was annoyed the other day when I picked up a book here in my library titled Homosexuality in History which should have been Homosexuality in Western History, because to read it, you wouldn't know that anything other than Western Europe existed.

[oyceter]

Yeah, my image of the Boxer Rebellion before taking classes was largely that of boxers in a ring. Or people in boxes. Or people in boxers in boxes.

I suspect most knowledge of Chinese history in the West is basically about the Qing Dynasty because that's when the West really comes into play, ha. One of my pet peeves is histories that go on about how China and Japan were so isolationist! And closed to outside trade! When they really mean: closed to Western trade. As there was a lot of inter-Asia trade going on throughout Chinese and Japanese history (will not go into wonky trade between China and Japan and how China kept thinking it ruled all of Asia, to the disagreement of everyone but China).

OTOH, I was annoyed the other day when I picked up a book here in my library titled Homosexuality in History which should have been Homosexuality in Western History, because to read it, you wouldn't know that anything other than Western Europe existed.

OMG. That is my other major pet peeve (well, one of many). I also hate it when you have Topic in History and it covers European eras in detail (Renaissance, medieval, etc. etc.) and then has one page on all of Africa or all of China.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Sad to say, this is one area where even an Asian-majority state like Hawai'i doesn't seem to do a whole lot better than the rest of the country: maybe it's gotten better in recent decades, but when I was in school the elementary-through-high-school level coverage of Asian history was pretty paper-thin. Prior to college level stuff I think I picked up more little details just from random library exploration, or even the period dramas running on the Japanese TV station, then we got at my various schools.

(And oooh, don't get me started on the whole "history doesn't start until the white people show up" thing when it's Christopher Who? Day. Although if you're interested in more stuff on modern native culture, I've just posted a massive YouTube video spam of contemporary Native musicians in my journal to commemorate the holiday.)

[oyceter]

Ohh, that is sad to hear. Though on the plus side, I think the University of Hawaii Press puts out a good deal of EAS scholarship and I think their EAS dept. is pretty good as well. On the other hand, not sure how it is for non-East-Asian Asian history.

Although if you're interested in more stuff on modern native culture, I've just posted a massive YouTube video spam of contemporary Native musicians in my journal to commemorate the holiday.

Oooo, thanks for hte heads up! I'll check it out.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Yeah, stuff at the college level seems like it's decent, and UH and the Bishop Museum both put out all sorts of fabulous books...but at least in the 70s/80s, stuff at the elementary-through-high-school levels wasn't all that great, although I really do hope that things have improved since my day! There was at least, not surprisingly, a bit more attention paid to Hawaiiana and local history, as an outgrowth of the 1970s Hawaiian cultural renaissance, but again there wasn't really comparable depth given to other Pacific Islander history except where it overlapped with local issues -- immigration waves for the plantations, that sort of thing.

And enjoy the vids, if you have any questions about the artists please feel free to ask away! I actually had a bunch of extra videos when I first posted but LJ was being all buggy and kept eating them until I just gave up in frustration.

[aeriedraconia.livejournal.com]

"OMG. That is my other major pet peeve (well, one of many). I also hate it when you have Topic in History and it covers European eras in detail (Renaissance, medieval, etc. etc.) and then has one page on all of Africa or all of China."

Me too! Or if there is a slim volume it will be in the kid's library, thus ensuring that it will be full of pictures but scantily supplied with overly simplified and generalized information.

[aeriedraconia.livejournal.com]

I've also been doing background research on ancient China (verra challenging) and I've been frustrated by the lack of ancient Chinese history (of course, there is more available if you are researching post 1912 China). Sadly, my library is particularly lacking in Chinese history, there are a few books on Tang dynasty and modern China but that's about it.

World history isn't.

[oyceter]

Ohhhh, that is sad! Are you using a school library? I'd hope a university library would have more, and of course you'd get access to things like online journals, but I think a normal library doesn't have very much. Also, when I scan the shelves at my public library, there's not much depth -- like you say, a lot of the popular histories of China are more on modern China.

[the_rck]

There's one English language novel that I know of based on the story of Yang Guifei-- The Court of the Lion by Eleanor Cooney and Daniel Altieri. I read it years ago and liked it, but I've no idea how well researched it is as it's a period and place that I know next to nothing about.

The same two authors also collaborated on Deception, a novel about Judge Dee (They noted in a prologue or epilogue that they used 'Dee' rather than a more correct romanization because of all of the previous English language books about Judge Dee). Again, I can't speak to accuracy, and it's been at least a decade since I read it.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

And ironically (or not-so-ironically), I came across both of those earlier today and ordered them from an online used bookstore. :D

[oyceter]

Oooo, let me know how they are when you read them (or if, given everyone's to-be-read stacks).

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Will do!

[oyceter]

Hrm, I am guessing Judge Dee must be Bao Qin Tien. I may avoid that novel; the summary on Amazon looks rather sketchy (I hate the standard portrayal of Chinese women in power as power-mad, wily seductresses bent on ruining the kingdom) and may check on the story of Yang Guifei first -- I am a little hesitant to read anything that may either over-romanticize her (Hi Bai Juyi!) or blame her for the fall of the High Tang period (Hi bulk of Chinese pop culture!).

[the_rck]

My recollection of The Court of the Lion is that Yang Guifei is a major character but isn't exactly who the book is about. It's one of those big books with dozens of important characters.

'Judge Dee' is based, roughly, on this fellow, but Western views of the character are heavily influenced by the novels of Roger van Gulik. van Gulik started by translating a Chinese novel about Judge Dee in the late 40s and then wrote a bunch of other stories about the fictionalized character. My guess is that Cooney and Altieri used 'Dee' in their novel rather than 'Ti' (as they refer to him in their afterword) in hopes of drawing in fans of the van Gulik mysteries.

[oyceter]

Oops, now I feel dumb. Bao Qin Tien's from another time period, duh.

[the_rck]

I had to look them both up to be sure that you weren't right. I'm never sure how many differences can be ascribed to the various romanization systems. Pinyin spellings scare me because I know I'm likely to mangle them, but that's the system I prefer to see used (not that I can actually *tell* which system's been used with any reliability. I don't know Mandarin).

I was happy to find both books because I love historical fiction that's set some place other than western Europe or North America and that doesn't involve characters from western Europe or North America. (Well, I used to love such books. Back before anxiety issues made those heavy novels too hard for me to read.)

[oyceter]

Yeah... OMG Chinese romanization systems give me a headache. And then you get into simplified vs. traditional characters and it's a whole new thing. I prefer pinyin as well because once you figure out the strange characters (x = sh, q = ch, etc.) it's pretty easy to figure out. Also, less apostrophes = faster typing!

I ditto you on love for non-Western historical fiction! I want to find more, but I'm also scared to look sometimes because so much of what I have found and read is sporky.

[the_rck]

I've seen more books with non-Western characters set in parts of Asia than I have books set in Africa (without Western characters) or the Pre-Columbian Americas (and I don't think I've *ever* seen anything set in pre-Colonial Australia).

Maybe this is a topic to post on-- Something asking people what books they've seen that fit the criteria. In English (either written in English originally or translated well). With all point of view characters neither western European nor North American. Well written. Well researched (or possibly well researched since not all readers will be sure one way or the other. I know I'm often not). Not involving cultural, military, trade, etc. conflicts and interactions with western Europe or the United States.

That last one would be a squishy criterion because there might be books that are very good and meet all of the other criteria. I just tend to include it in my searches because I don't want to be utterly depressed or enraged.

[oyceter]

You should ask! I would definitely lurk around in the comments.

[the_rck]

I've posted the request here: http://therck.livejournal.com/169323.html

I'm quite sure that I've forgotten to specify some important criterion and will look stupid, but that's probably the anxiety talking. I'm not sure how it is that I can give a speech or act in a play without freaking out but do freak out about posting on LJ. Maybe it's the quasi-permanence of the publicly written word...

[oyceter]

I am sitting and trying to think of suggestions but my brain has futzed out on me! I hope you get some good ones though!

Watch how I ignore all the truly interesting things in this post!

[octopedingenue]

I wish I could download knowledge into my brain.

Oh good God me too. I watch the instruction-brain-downloady bits of the Matrix movies and cannot sit still from LONGING. (They can learn kung fu or Japanese or helicopter piloting in thirty seconds and they want to BREAK OUT?!)

Re: Watch how I ignore all the truly interesting things in this post!

[oyceter]

Hee!

OMG I had the exact same reaction to the Matrix. I think Mely said but then you would have to be a pod person used only for your energy!

And yet, it is so tempting despite the pod-ness!

Re: Watch how I ignore all the truly interesting things in this post!

[octopedingenue]

I work retail! I am already a pod person used only for my (waning) energy! GIMME DIY HELICOPTER PILOTING BRAIN-DOWNLOAD.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

I don't have the available mentation to drive a good search into this, but I am happy to look up any particular paper or author available through the university library system.

[oyceter]

Oooh, thanks! Currently I have nothing, but will keep that in mind.

[makaidiver.livejournal.com]

Unrelated to the above (this is the quickest way to get this to you) - here's a cute LOL rodent. http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/10/07/i-has-a-buffet/

[oyceter]

Thanks!

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

OTOH, I wonder how much a high school or undergraduate university student in the Middle Kingdom is taught about the Italian Renaissance . . .

[oyceter]

Well, I mentioned "(am not exonerating the non-Western world, btw, but given the global dominance of Western culture, non-Western ones have to have a better baseline knowledge of Western history)."

Also, while I doubt a high school or undergrad student in China would have an equal depth of knowledge, I am betting that most of them would be able to identify key figures of the Italian Renaissance like Michaelangelo and and Da Vinci and the Medicis and roughly place it in the correct century. I don't think the same is true for Chinese history here.

Plus, bringing up Chinese students is a bit of a red herring, given the position of power Western culture has on a global level.

Chinese Students

[(Anonymous)]

Yang Guifei?
I think that knowing about Yang Guifei for a Chinese person is more about being familiar with popular culture, including extended Chinese historical soap operas. That's certainly how I learned about the story of Yang Guifei, as well as about the Four Beauties of China, who were Yang Guifei, Xi Shi, Wang Zhoujun, and Diaochan.

There's a lot of historical soap operas in Asia--massively multiplex stories of the Monkey God, for example, or about the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. All that stuff isn't "high culture," just popular historical culture.

And I wouldn't know this stuff if I didn't grow up in Asia. It isn't esoteric knowledge in the least.

Re: Chinese Students

[oyceter]

The pop culture thing is partly my point -- sort of like the George Washington as founding father thing in the US. You end up learning the historical details later in class, but by that time, that figure or event or whatnot is already a part of your consciousness via pop culture. The level of knowledge I'm thinking of isn't historically accurate or detailed or anything, it's more "There was this person named Yang Guifei and she was famous."