Race in Heroes

[oyceter]

verstehen has a post on racial stereotypes in Heroes, and of course, now I have to stick my nose into this!

I have been debating writing a post on race in Heroes off and on for a while -- I say this not to be all "This was my idea first!" because the more people talking about race in Heroes and in general, the better. But I haven't because I didn't want to rain on the fannish squee, because I didn't want a giant wankfest in my LJ, and largely because I am tired and do not want to argue about racism for the six bazillionth time, especially because I am starting to feel like the person who is always bringing race into things. So many thanks to verstehen for posting and getting me off my lazy butt.

So first, a few general notes on the rebuttals to verstehen:

1. Even if all the characters, white and non-white, on Heroes start out as stereotypes, the show can still be racist. Because of the general lack of characters of color in the media and the general prevalence of white characters, stereotypes of minorities have a much larger impact than stereotypes of white people. Also, the power differential between white people and people of color is such that stereotypes of people of color hurt POC more. Whether or not the characters of color transcend the stereotypes enough to counter this is another question.


2. In the tail-end of her post (sorry, I tend to assume fannish people I meet via LJ are female), verstehen writes about race in casting, particularly the issue of casting a Korean actor as a Japanese character (also relevant for Heroes, given that the actor who plays Ando is Korean). I'd like to note that it does make a difference when you mix Asians up, or have a Latin-American actor play a Mexican-American character or have an Indian actor play an Iraqi. It is not the same as casting a white actor as a Hispanic. Again, this is because of power differentials, because of the amount of roles already available to white actors and the scarcity of roles for actors of color. This is also because in the past, if you were a non-Japanese Asian being mistaken for Japanese during WWII, this could have very real, very negative effects on your livelihood. This isn't limited to internment camps and times of war; when being mistaken for another minority group carries that potential weight, mixing these races up during casting is not a lightweight thing.

I say these things as someone who watches Heroes devotedly and loves the show. I personally think that the show has done some very good things with regard to race, particularly by just having more than one recurring character be a character of color, by having several interracial relationships, by having the Japanese characters speak Japanese with subtitles, and by casting a good deal of actors of color in walk-on roles (Linderman's assistant, Niki's psychiatrist, FBI agent last week, and etc.). On the other hand, the show has also done some not-so-great things with regard to race, one of these things being the stereotyped roles.

I do think that Hiro, DL and the Haitian break out of the stereotype in some ways, but not so much that you can point to them and say that they are subverting the stereotype.

Spoilers up through Heroes 1x18

And then you have the only woman of color of any consequence on the show being killed to further the character development of two men, one white. There is Hana, but she's really only showed up in one episode so far.

Another thing that has been really bothering me is that the white characters are currently the ones getting the meatiest storylines. Yes, there are white characters with boring storylines, but since there are already more white characters than characters of color in this show and in many of the shows on TV now, this is less of a problem for the white characters. There is the mass fannish squee about Peter and Claude, and meanwhile, Mohinder, DL and Micah don't do much, the Haitian is mainly a secondary character in Claire's storyline (yes, I do think he has more agency than it seems, but he is not a main character by far), Simone is dead, and Isaac looks doomed and most people don't seem interested in him anyway. Thankfully, there's Hiro and Ando, but they seem to have been stuck in plot limbo for a while. Hopefully that will change with the sword.

I'm concerned about this because I have had a nidgy feeling for a while that the fandom for this show has been centering around the white characters. Please tell me if I am wrong; I am by no means the Heroes fandom expert. I mostly speak from browsing links in some comms, checking interests, checking comments and etc. I am sure that a lot of it is because the white characters are getting the coolest powers -- Peter and Sylar's powers have the most dramatic potential. And a lot of it is because they are getting meatier storylines, especially the Petrelli and Bennet storylines. I, too, like those storylines a lot. But... why is it that once again, the white characters are getting the better storylines and powers?

I also wonder about implicit racism, if we are all so programmed to respond to white characters that it takes an extra amount of "cool" to make us respond fannishly to a character of color. I include myself in this; I've soaked up the same media most people have, almost all (particularly in genre) with white characters. I mean... I don't know. I know for myself, I had to consciously make myself start caring about characters of color, to consciously start noticing them, because I used to look at the Token Minority Character and think, "Too ethnic, brain cannot compute."

I mean, dude! What is wrong with this picture? I am Chinese, and for years and years, I still subconsciously sought out white characters to squee about and admire and lust over. And for years and years, whenever I would ask myself why all my favorite characters were white, I would come up with: "Because they're more interesting (it's not because I'm racist)" and never wonder why the writers wrote them as more interesting, why maybe there weren't even any characters of color to glom on to, why they were the lead and the character of color was the sidekick.

And now, handy-dandy links to race and racism in casting and the TV world we all live in!

- rachelmanija has written up great posts on race and casting (part 2)
- witchqueen has some great posts on race and slash and a guide for white people in fandom.

And if you just click around those pages a bit more, there are tons of links to other discussions on race, racism, cultural appropriation, and fandom. I've also got lots of stuff under my tags and Memories.

Comments

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I think the fannish squee for Heroes seems to center around three characters: Peter, Claire, and Hiro. So we have the Emo White Guy (about whom I could not care less, but that's a rant for another day) predictably getting the most groiny sort of attention -- and the most vids, probably a direct result of him having the most visually interesting screentime, what with the flying and everything.

Claire gets the Buffy/VMars/teengirl power/angst/fangirl identification angle. She is a young woman, and she is very capable, and she is the character with probably the most overall screentime. I tend to ping pretty hard for female characters with agency on any show, and I'm not surprised to see other fans going in that direction. Still, I can't help but wonder if we'd all love her so much if she weren't white.

Which brings me to Hiro, who honestly seems to me to get the most squee on my flist (if not the most in fandom). We *love* him, for he is adorable and determined and powerful and he has a strong moral center. And he's a person of color who mostly speaks his own language, which is awesome. But it's also the source of one of the most problematic things happening on the show for me, which I didn't see verstehen talking about: Hiro's assimilation into white American culture.

Which, yeah, we don't know much. But when we get that one scene with future!Hiro, he is speaking conversational English without a trace of an accent. This bothers me a great deal. I have zero problem with him learning English per se, as it is necessary for him to interact with most of the other people he meets in his travels, and ergo necessary for his overall world-saving mission. But the loss of the accent really threw me, especially since, from what I know about acquisition of language skills, it's extraordinarily unusual to be able to shed all traces of an accent if you learn a new language after young childhood. So it's not likely this would happen, which means they're trying to say something particular about future!Hiro. Future!Hiro projects confidence and authority, Western masculinist ideals that cannot be achieved with even a trace of a foreign accent, apparently. Does an accent imply incompetence? What does *that* suggest about people who weren't born and raised in the US?

I'm curious whether any of this pings for you. It's bugging me a lot, even as I enjoy the show very much, and still marvel every week at how great it is to have interesting people of color on my TV screen.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Because of the general lack of characters of color in the media and the general prevalence of white characters, stereotypes of minorities have a much larger impact than stereotypes of white people.

I can't believe this actually needs to be said. *sigh* If you look at the leads of, say, the 20 most popular fannish shows right now, there's white people as criminals, doctors, lawyers, housewives, military officers, academics, reporters, bureaucrats, librarians, FBI agents, actors, politicians, college students, scientists, etcetera. Adding in one character who's, say, a "chubby Irish donut-eating cop" is stereotypical, yes, but there's *so many other* identities and options available for contrast.

On the other hand, if there's two Indian characters on popular fannish shows (that I can think of) and one of them is Kelly Kapoor from the Office and one of is Mohinder-- then it's a *little bit more* of a problem that he drives a taxi.

Not to mention the problem with stereotyping minorities *in particular* is that, you know, in a lot of places, Mohinder is probably the only Indian person they ever see. If you have a white character who's bad at basketball, most *white people* are probably going to know that's a stereotype. Most people are *aware* that something like "ditzy blonde cheerleader" "donut-eating cop" is storytelling shorthand and/or a cliche, and are aware that they don't define the characters. If you have Mohinder doing something stereotypically Indian, most people watching the show who don't live in urban areas are probably not even going to know it's a stereotype.

This is why people get so upset about depictions of, say, Paganism or Wicca on TV shows, you know? If there was a Christian character on Heroes who said something like, "Oh, Christians believe that umbrellas are the devil's work," people might get upset about the misrepresentation, but I doubt anybody watching the show would actually take that as fact. But if you have Kelly Kapoor from The Office make some ridiculous untrue remark like "Hindus believe that your socks always have to match your shoes," there's a LOT of people who *don't know enough* about Hinduism to realize that's not actually true.

[em-h.livejournal.com]

I also wonder about implicit racism, if we are all so programmed to respond to white characters that it takes an extra amount of "cool" to make us respond fannishly to a character of color.

This is definitely worth asking, but I do think that in the case of Heroes specifically, it's mostly the fault of the writers for giving the white characters the more interesting storylines -- with the arguable exception of Hiro and Ando, though that was more the case before they went into some kind of plot hiatus.

It's hard to tell, because of the large disproportion in the writing, but they may also have semi-consistently cast stronger white actors (which, if true, speaks to their greater interest in those characters, not to the respective pools of acting talent). The Haitian and DL just haven't ever been given enough to do for us to fairly judge them as actors -- both may be tremendous if given the chance -- but I'm really unimpressed by Mohinder, Simone and Isaac. Again, I'll stress that I'm saying this does involve racism; it involves the casting people not caring as much who they cast in those roles. (I'm just thinking about this because Naveen Andrews manages so consistently to knock it out of the park on Lost -- despite the egregious casting of him as an Iraqi -- enough so that Sayid remains many people's favourite character even though he does essentially nothing for twenty episodes a year.)

Overall, Heroes has achieved what is now the status quo on much Canadian and British TV -- an ethnically diverse cast, with a certain amount of colour-blind casting in secondary roles, but with the real lead parts all played by white people. I guess this is a step up from the US TV status quo of everyone being white except one black guy somewhere, but it's really not an okay place to settle down and preen.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

On LJ, almost all of the fannish squee I have seen has been of the icky Nathan/Peter variety. Which is icky. Also a bit of Peter/Claire, which is ICKIER.

However, the Hiro and Ando (curiously, no Hiro/Ando) squee has been loudest in my realtime board. Their dorky enthusiasm is a powerful touchstone like early Willow from Buffy.

Most comments I have seen about Mohinder, prior to this past week, were of the "take off your shirt, please" variety. That he seems to have grown some guts (if not much sense) was a change much applauded, and hope is high that Peter will be able to work the proper mojo on him.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

God. I think Hiro's the protagonist. Everything else you said is true, but Hiro, Claire, and Peter are the centers of the show, which is a hell of a lot better than Buffy ever did. (Low praise indeed on the ethnic-diversity front.)

The arcs are
Hiro/Ando/sword
Claire/Dad/Claire/Dad/Claire/Dad
Peter/Peter/Peter with just a squidge of Nathan and Claude *g*

And everybody else is part of the cast of thousands.

[oyceter]

I was randomly browsing through ninth_wonders just to get a general impression, and it seems like there's a whole lot of Peter stuff, a whole lot of Claire/Peter or Claire, a good deal of Peter/Nathan, some Mohinder/Sylar, and really not much on Hiro at all, which surprised me. I'm not sure how accurate this impression is, since some of the stories and vids didn't have character info. I wonder if Hiro doesn't get that much fic or vids? I got no clue, honestly. Because he does get a whole lot of squee.

And I do not begrudge Claire the Buffy/kickass girl spot at all; I love her to pieces. But it would be way cooler if a) there were more than one kickass girl or woman and b) if some of them were POC.

Re: Hiro's accent. That's very neat! I didn't think about that. I have such a gut reaction to accents, especially Asian accents, that it's hard to say what I think, objectively. I mean, for me, Chinese accents have always been associated with shame and not being able to communicate; I hated having to talk for my mom here even as I got why she hated having to talk for herself.

I vaguely remember Charlie's bad Japanese accent being communicated in the subtitles, and rachelmanija had a neat comment earlier on about the subtitles for Hiro and Ando making us sympathize with them over their language difficulties. But I think you're right about the accent as an impediment to manly man hero status. And the show's narrative has sort of been supporting that -- Hiro can't communicate with Isaac in the beginning because he can't speak English.

I mean, obviously the language difficulties are real, and I think the writers were trying to get rid of the plot difficulties due to the accent. But it also makes it look like having an accent is this awful thing that cannot be transcended unless you lose it. Which is nearly impossible.

While I love Hiro and Ando, I've had a few twinges at the comedic elements in their plotlines too. I think the audience does sympathize with them, but it's something that could so easily slip over to the "laugh at the foreign people." I don't think it has yet, but it's such a difficult and delicate line to walk.

[shati.livejournal.com]

I was about to comment saying that I agree that Hiro, Peter, and Claire get the most squee -- in fact, as far as I've seen Hiro and Claire are more loved than Peter -- but that there is startlingly little fic about Hiro.

Probably this is in part because Hiro is popular for gen reasons more than the other two, if that makes sense. (Which is also because they cast men who are not conventionally hot as Hiro and Ando, and that's . . . well, for the most part, the rest of the cast is. And there's that unpleasant tradition of asexualizing Asian men. And yet: Masi Oka is adorable and it's nice to see someone who isn't super hot being awesome and loved, and damn it, I wish they hadn't killed Charlie.) But it's still less fannish attention for him.

Anyway, I don't think you're wrong. I'm especially worried that they -- the writers giving white characters meatier storylines, and fans obsessing more over white characters -- will feed off each other, and that, say, Mohinder and the Sawyers will end up written out over fan reaction.

And that is all I have the brain to say right now. I think Sylar ate my brains.

[shati.livejournal.com]

I meant to say the Sanders. Damn you, Sylar!

[oyceter]

I can't believe this actually needs to be said.

Two steps forward, one step back? I feel like I should have some sort of crib sheet to whip out to recite the same old same old every time ;).

I mean, yay to actually have two Indian characters on TV and boo to the fact that having even two is so extraordinary as to be a squeeful event.

[oyceter]

Yeah, I suspect it's a combination of the writers giving the white characters the better storylines and possibly they get more interest from the fans because as shati says in another comment, Hiro's largely read as a gen character and not paired as often, which means less fic. Which again may tie back to the whole emasculation of Asian men in the media and etc. etc. etc.

Ahhh, fun times...

Overall, Heroes has achieved what is now the status quo on much Canadian and British TV -- an ethnically diverse cast, with a certain amount of colour-blind casting in secondary roles, but with the real lead parts all played by white people.

That's a really good point; that's my quibble with Spooks too.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I've seen at least one Hiro vid listed on my various comms, and maybe two or three Peter vids, at least one Claire vid, and one Niki vid. One thing to remember about vidding is that without source footage, you can't do it. So for example, if I wanted to make a Claire vid, that would be no problem, but a Simone vid would run out of usable stuff pretty quickly at this stage. The way Heroes works the ensemble cast has actually resulted in fewer vids and less fic than you'd otherwise expect for a show this strong: dividing the show up each week so that each character gets three or four minutes of screentime doesn't add up to a lot of character study vids (or even pairing vids) being possible, and there's not much basis for a lot of fic, either.

[/ aside]

I think Hiro doesn't get much fic because, as someone commented below, people aren't seeing him sexually. Which is pretty interesting, really because then you have to ask why. Is it because they are doing the "asexual Asian male" thing? If that's so, then why is Ando such a horndog? Is it because Hiro is so boyish? Well, that doesn't explain reams of HP fic. So I'm not sure, really. I wish Charlie had survived, so that we could see Hiro in a romantic and sexual relationship with someone. But even without that, you'd think that Hiro/Ando would be the big slash pairing for the show, or at least a minor one. I think your worry about the comic elements is a reasonable one, but that shouldn't stop them from becoming the Merry/Pippin of Heroes in fangirls' eyes.

But I think you're right about the accent as an impediment to manly man hero status.

I'm also concerned about the way future!Hiro loses the very qualities that are making us all squee over him now: gone is the smile, the exuberance, hell, the emotional expression of any kind. Instead we have this faux ninja dude with a flavor-saver, an American accent, and a Very Serious Demeanor. On the one hand, I think it's kind of interesting to imagine that Hiro might "grow up" a little, but on the other, why should he need to? Does the show imagine we won't believe in his power unless he's traditionally masculine?

But it would be way cooler if a) there were more than one kickass girl or woman

Don't forget Niki/Jessica! I think there's some hugely interesting stuff going on there. But I agree, it'd be cool if there was a woman of color who was interesting and didn't (grr) get killed. I loved Micah's grandmother. I wish we could see more of her.

[oyceter]

Yeah, I was sort of curious about the lack of Hiro/Ando! I mean, on paper the relationship looks like the ideal slash pairing, plus Hiro is pretty popular. I suspect it is because Hiro is portrayed as more cute and less sexy, that they cast an actor who isn't traditionally sexy, and that Hiro and Ando are often played for comic relief in moments of sexual tension (Ando's affection for the Vegas showgirl). And I do, of course, think race is involved in those creative decisions.

I have much hope for Mohinder! I did see some glimmerings of Mohinder/Sylar slash, which I expected, and some Mohinder/Peter too.

[minnow1212.livejournal.com]

I don't have a lot to add, just wanted to thank you for the post.

[oyceter]

I like to think of Hiro as the center too ^_^. But I am somewhat worried that the show is moving toward a direction in which Peter is the center (he opened the show with the dream flying footage and much of the current plot looks like it will be centered around Peter exploding or not). Of course, the show has pulled off lots of plot twists and turns before, so there is still hope!

[oyceter]

Mmmmm, braaaaaiiiiiiinnnnssss....

Anyway... Yeah, I think you're right about Hiro (and Ando) being very gen characters. I tend to think of them as gen characters as well, and it's odd, because I think maybe with different... something... they would be the slash pairing of choice. And then there is the selection of two not-conventionally-hot Asian actors for the guys, which is again a casting decision. It's hard to say. Part of why I love Hiro so much is because he's boyish and not Teh Sexbomb, but there's the interesting subtext of Ando never being able to get the girl and his lusting after at least two hot blonde women (Niki and Vegas girl).

I feel like I should write Hiro and Ando fic or something to start something ;).

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

There is Hana

Huh, that's interesting--I considered her a white character. (I tend to assume that Israelis who aren't obviously, say, of Ethiopian derivation, are of European derivation, and are thus the equivalent of white South Africans.)

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I think Ando is very much conventionally hot. (And I know at least one person who also thinks so, as when we were talking about the show he began spontaneously fantasizing about a threesome between Ando, Peter, and Mohinder.) Hiro is more adorable, like Xander from Buffy.

I do prefer them as platonic buddies to a slash pairing, though, although I'd enjoy seeing Ando get together with Hiro's sister, who he completely had the hots for.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I totally slash Mohinder/Sylar in a bad-wrong-creepy way, though I don't think the show in general is very slashy. Do you think I'd be striking a blow for anti-racism in Heroes fandom if I actually wrote some? ;)

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I also think Hiro is the protagonist, insofar as a show this ensemble-centered can have one. I mean, I'm not saying the other stuff you mentioned isn't there, but in this particular matter he seems more central to the plot, has been given more screentime (I think), and has appeared in more episodes than anyone except possibly Claire-- the second-most likely possibility for protagonist. His storylines, with the exception of the recent and now over interlude in which he lost his powers, have been juicy, with lots of emotional range from comedy to action to romance to to family drama to tragedy, and central to the main story.

The thing with Peter (and I actually do love Peter now, though not as much as Hiro or Claire) is that the decision to let him manifest anyone's power without being in their presence is very likely setting him up for a fall as meteoric as his rise. If he can do that in the long term of the show, he's way too powerful and it throws the show out of whack-- it becomes the Peter vs. Sylar show, and while I expect at least one episode to be just that, the show as a whole is about the ensemble. I expect Peter to be drastically de-powered, if not killed, by the end of the season.

[shati.livejournal.com]

My brains give bad breath! And sometimes kuru!

because I think maybe with different... something... they would be the slash pairing of choice

I think you're right. Actually, while I share some of laurashapiro's unease about future!Hiro, I wonder if, if he becomes the present Hiro of the show in the future, that might change things. (And for the record, I do find Masi Oka totally attractive.)

And yeah, Ando is not asexual exactly, but his attraction to women is played for laughs.

I feel like I should write Hiro and Ando fic or something to start something ;).

I really agree. :D

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen anything past, like, episode 4 of Heroes, so I didn't know that there was an Ando/Hiro's sister thing, but if that's true then it just makes me even more curious why there's no Ando/Hiro slash. "I like your sister" = pure triangulation = very slashable dynamic.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

You could make a structural argument for Mohinder as the protagonist in terms of centrality to the main narrative (whatever that is) and except in the incredibly unlikely event of him actually dying of Sylar-inflicted wounds, the narrative seems to be moving in the direction of Mohinder as the focal point for the gathering of new heroes; however, I'd still say it goes Hiro, Claire, Peter, Mohinder, everybody else.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

I think Hiro's the protagonist.

i think we need to poll the writers and find out how many of them have read _snow crash_. that's what i think.

[ginny-t.livejournal.com]

I haven't had a chance to read all the comments, but I have 2 things for now:

Hiro is/was getting the most love from my flist. My flist is über geeky, though.

There are 2 things about "the Haitian" that bug me. For one, the way he's just "the Haitian" - wtf?! I know it's mystery, but it bugs me in a twitchy racist stereotype kind of way. The other thing could be a failing of mine. How the heck do they know he's Haitian? Just looking at him, his origin looks like it could be anywhere in the Caribbean or even African American. Why do all the characters who've never heard him utter a word know that this mysterious figure they can barely remember is Haitian? (If that's been cleared up, I apologise - I'm a few episodes behind.)

[oyceter]

The Hiro-as-gen-character thing is very interesting! I suppose some of it could be like S1 Willow geekiness, except Willow of course did have someone she was romantically interested in. And the utter lack of Hiro/Ando sort of puzzles me, given that the fandom is even shipping characters who have met maybe twice.

I am hoping that future!Hiro is a sort of red herring; I can picture something like future!Hiro getting back to his own time, cracking up and being proud of himself for being just like the guys from Terminator. At least, that's what I'm hoping, because I don't want to lose Hiro as he is now.

Re: the traditionally masculine, I don't think the show is advocating the loss of all emotional expression, especially given Hiro's comments to Nathan in the last episode and Peter and Claude's arguments about emotional attachment. At least, that is what I hope.