More Robin Hobb thoughts
Tue, Jul. 29th, 2003 06:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
oyceterSpoilers ahead for Robin Hobb and George R. R. Martin books...
Was surfing around looking for Robin Hobb sites, when I found a review of Ship of Magic and Mad Ship by Orson Scott Card here. And in it is this quote:
"So many fantasy series by women tend to be about costume changes and romance"
I love the man's books, but, ugh. What crack is he on? "So many fantasy series by men tend to be about magic swords and violence." But then there's Gaiman and Pratchett and George R. R. Martin and Guy Gavriel Kay and... sigh. I also just realized most of the fantasy I still read consists of female authors. But of course this is because I'm a romatnic sap who likes fashion. Yup.
Spoilers for Golden Fool
And I'm desperately trying to make my fantasy-reading friends read Golden Fool, because I really really really want to squee about Fool/Fitz. It's strange, because I remember picking up Assassin's Apprentice and Royal Assassin sometime back in tenth grade and not being too involved with the series. I found it very interesting, but then Fitz died in RA. And I thought that was it. Then I found Assassin's Quest in a bookstore sometime, surprised that it turned out to be a trilogy. And I love Assassin's Quest -- the dragons, the Wit, Nighteyes, the Fool. Then I fell in love with the Liveship series because it picked up on some of my favorite threads from the Assassins series and wove them in subtly, with the sea serpents and the discovery of the old Elderling cities. And of course, Amber. I wasn't sure at first, because 1) girl! and 2) not white! and I nearly fell out of my chair when Hobb described what Paragon recarved looked like. I just love how she's managed to tie together all three trilogies and broaden the mythology and history of her world with each book. And I like her girls. This is important. I don't particularly mind if a book has no girls at all, but once the females show up, they had damn well better not be stupid. *cough*RobertJordan*cough* Although the Assassins trilogy didn't have that many female characters in the forefront, as Fitz doesn't ever really seem to figure out how to interact with tthem, there's Kettricken and Lady Patience and the lady who defends her town from the Forged ones, etc. I also find it interesting that the Assassins trilogy somehow seems more "female" because of its focus on Fitz's feelings and thoughts, versus the very female-populated Liveship trilogy and its more action-adventure plot. I love the Liveship characters, because they have different personalities *cough*RobertJordan*cough*. I especially fell in love with Malta maybe halfway through the first book, despite thinking she was a complete and utter bitch, just like how I like Scarlett O'Hara and Asuka in NGE. I liked watching the Vestrit family work together and finding that each one of them had their own strengths and weaknesses, and I liked how there wasn't a single stupid female in the entire book. There are questionable ones and there are women whose ideas I didn't like, but Hobb makes each one of them a person with motivations and character. And she doesn't ignore the male characters either (Kennit! Wintrow! Paragon! Brashen!).
I keep trying to get Sarah to read them, but she's scared because she says the Assassins trilogy was too dark and depressing. I still don't think so, even though they are kind of dark and depressing. But compared to Martin's Song of Ice and Fire they're nothing. I think his series is very, very good, but there's something slightly off-putting about them (IMHO) that reminds me a little of Alan Moore.
Spoilers for A Storm of Swords and Hobb books
There seems to be an intrinsic pessimism about the series and about the people in the series that turns me off, so that we end up seeing the worst of each of the characters. And then in the last book, he killed off Robb Stark and his mother, and oh my god. That was the point where I wasn't sure I could read any more, because of the scene where Catelyn finds her son's body mutilated, ugh. That hurt. Luckily, my two favorites, Tyrion and Daenerys, are still alive, so I'm still reading (rooting for Daenerys). Somehow the tone of Hobb's books seems different to me, a little more hopeful and a little more human. And now that the little Fool/Fitz thread that's gotten stronger through each successive book has finally been brought to the forefront, I have turned into a rabid shipper squealing OTP whenever the Fool so much looks at Fitz... There's just something about the Fool openly showing his/her vulnerabilities and being a jester at the same time that gets to me, like the scene in FE when he tells Fitz his/her real name. And of course Fitz can never tell when the Fool is serious.
Ok, going to stop squealing about Robin Hobb soon. Really.
Was surfing around looking for Robin Hobb sites, when I found a review of Ship of Magic and Mad Ship by Orson Scott Card here. And in it is this quote:
"So many fantasy series by women tend to be about costume changes and romance"
I love the man's books, but, ugh. What crack is he on? "So many fantasy series by men tend to be about magic swords and violence." But then there's Gaiman and Pratchett and George R. R. Martin and Guy Gavriel Kay and... sigh. I also just realized most of the fantasy I still read consists of female authors. But of course this is because I'm a romatnic sap who likes fashion. Yup.
Spoilers for Golden Fool
And I'm desperately trying to make my fantasy-reading friends read Golden Fool, because I really really really want to squee about Fool/Fitz. It's strange, because I remember picking up Assassin's Apprentice and Royal Assassin sometime back in tenth grade and not being too involved with the series. I found it very interesting, but then Fitz died in RA. And I thought that was it. Then I found Assassin's Quest in a bookstore sometime, surprised that it turned out to be a trilogy. And I love Assassin's Quest -- the dragons, the Wit, Nighteyes, the Fool. Then I fell in love with the Liveship series because it picked up on some of my favorite threads from the Assassins series and wove them in subtly, with the sea serpents and the discovery of the old Elderling cities. And of course, Amber. I wasn't sure at first, because 1) girl! and 2) not white! and I nearly fell out of my chair when Hobb described what Paragon recarved looked like. I just love how she's managed to tie together all three trilogies and broaden the mythology and history of her world with each book. And I like her girls. This is important. I don't particularly mind if a book has no girls at all, but once the females show up, they had damn well better not be stupid. *cough*RobertJordan*cough* Although the Assassins trilogy didn't have that many female characters in the forefront, as Fitz doesn't ever really seem to figure out how to interact with tthem, there's Kettricken and Lady Patience and the lady who defends her town from the Forged ones, etc. I also find it interesting that the Assassins trilogy somehow seems more "female" because of its focus on Fitz's feelings and thoughts, versus the very female-populated Liveship trilogy and its more action-adventure plot. I love the Liveship characters, because they have different personalities *cough*RobertJordan*cough*. I especially fell in love with Malta maybe halfway through the first book, despite thinking she was a complete and utter bitch, just like how I like Scarlett O'Hara and Asuka in NGE. I liked watching the Vestrit family work together and finding that each one of them had their own strengths and weaknesses, and I liked how there wasn't a single stupid female in the entire book. There are questionable ones and there are women whose ideas I didn't like, but Hobb makes each one of them a person with motivations and character. And she doesn't ignore the male characters either (Kennit! Wintrow! Paragon! Brashen!).
I keep trying to get Sarah to read them, but she's scared because she says the Assassins trilogy was too dark and depressing. I still don't think so, even though they are kind of dark and depressing. But compared to Martin's Song of Ice and Fire they're nothing. I think his series is very, very good, but there's something slightly off-putting about them (IMHO) that reminds me a little of Alan Moore.
Spoilers for A Storm of Swords and Hobb books
There seems to be an intrinsic pessimism about the series and about the people in the series that turns me off, so that we end up seeing the worst of each of the characters. And then in the last book, he killed off Robb Stark and his mother, and oh my god. That was the point where I wasn't sure I could read any more, because of the scene where Catelyn finds her son's body mutilated, ugh. That hurt. Luckily, my two favorites, Tyrion and Daenerys, are still alive, so I'm still reading (rooting for Daenerys). Somehow the tone of Hobb's books seems different to me, a little more hopeful and a little more human. And now that the little Fool/Fitz thread that's gotten stronger through each successive book has finally been brought to the forefront, I have turned into a rabid shipper squealing OTP whenever the Fool so much looks at Fitz... There's just something about the Fool openly showing his/her vulnerabilities and being a jester at the same time that gets to me, like the scene in FE when he tells Fitz his/her real name. And of course Fitz can never tell when the Fool is serious.
Ok, going to stop squealing about Robin Hobb soon. Really.
Not having read Orson Scott Card's own oeuvre...
Wed, Jul. 30th, 2003 04:17 am (UTC)So many fantasy series by women tend to be about costume changes and romance? Right. Of course they are. That's what was central in the recent Mary Gentle novel I read. The costume changes and the romance.
But, onto the Robin Hobb praise: I loved both the Assassin trilogy and the Liveship trilogy, and excellent point about the "female" focus in the former, with a male character pov, and the girls living the action-adventure in the later. Again, you have to love Hobb challenging traditional gender perceptions. Of course, the third person narration of the Liveship trilogy also enables her to develop various characters - notably Kennit and Malta - in a way which would have been impossible had she been limited to Althea's or Wintrow's pov.
Martin has something of Moore's pessimism, true, but like Moore he's also able to surprise you with layers, showing you not the worst but also their ability to develop. Think of Jaime, who first looked like a one-dimensional villain and then started to become infinitely interesting. And Tyrion is definitely my favourite character.
But I never fell in love with his books the way I did with Hobb's, either.
Re: Not having read Orson Scott Card's own oeuvre...
Wed, Jul. 30th, 2003 04:48 am (UTC)I can't decide if I like the 3rd person or 1st person POV more... both are so good in their own ways. As I said before, I liked the Assassin trilogy, but as I read more of Robin Hobb and this universe, the more impressed I am by her -- the way she plays with thoughts of gender and gendered narratives, the idea of history and time and the White Prophet/Catalyst, etc.
This is true, re Martin... Jaime is getting interesting. And I love Tyrion to death because he's interesting and funny and sly and on the "evil" side. But I have a bad feeling that Martin is going to do something really, really bad to him because he's one of the few sympathetic characters left. In general, though, I feel sometimes that Martin is only manipulating characters for sheer shock value, ex. the fact that none of the Starks is having anything close to a good life, almost as though he's laughing at the reader for forming an attachment to them. I'm projecting here, of course. It's just -- so few people in Martin's series so far are kind or good-hearted. I personally find it hard to read stories when I feel the author has little faith in humanity.
Re: Not having read Orson Scott Card's own oeuvre...
Wed, Jul. 30th, 2003 11:32 am (UTC)Actually, I have a lot more faith in Martin than a lot of other writers (minus our beloved Hobb *g*). He truly seems to grasp the idea that the heroes don't always win and is willing to take that chance with his books. I'd rather have the uncertainty and the sharply drawn characters versus Robert Jordan's plodding sameness or Terry Goodkind's thinly disguised political screeds.
I really don't think he's laughing - really :). IMO, he seems in love with the world he's created and gratified that so many seem to want to share it with him.
Re: Not having read Orson Scott Card's own oeuvre...
Wed, Jul. 30th, 2003 08:46 pm (UTC)Robin Hobb is no joke!
Tue, Aug. 12th, 2003 04:40 pm (UTC)I'm waiting on the 3rd book of the Tawny Man cycle, and I'm pretty sure that there will be just as many questions at the end of that then there were at the end of the Liveship Traders.
Have you read any of Hobb's work as Meghan Lindholm? Also beautiful, also wondrous and strange. Also peppered all over with loss and irrevocable change.
As for this, "So many fantasy series by women tend to be about costume changes and romance"
That's just OSC talking crap. Writing great stories that tackle great things and writing intriguing/interesting people while he's at it makes it no exception. I stopped going by his website because every once in a while I'd read some editorial thing he'd written - about women or things gendery - and I'd be enraged.
Re: Robin Hobb is no joke!
Wed, Aug. 13th, 2003 12:55 am (UTC)I can't wait for the third Tawny Man book... ugh, then I either park myself in a bookstore to read the hardcover or wait for months for the paperback to come out =(.
I'm trying to hunt down her Megan Lindholm work, heard good things about Wizard of the Pigeons, but it seems to have been out of print for a bit. And it's not in my library, bah.
Sigh. This isn't just a driveby OSC remark? That's too bad... I do love his books, but I try to stay away from him as a person.