Cultural appropriation, pt. 2

[oyceter]

Or, in which I make myself extremely unpopular and get flamed through the roof.

I am limiting this to America because I live here now and because the majority of people who've been commenting seem to be from there. This isn't because I think America is most important (because I don't), but because I need to limit the scope of this somehow. I apologize to those living elsewhere, and I really want to make a more global post about this later, unless people are absolutely sick of me going on and on and on about this.

1. There has been much discussion of cultural authenticity and the problems of cultural authenticity in the comments of my previous post, yhlee's post, cofax7's post, and rilina's post. I feel conflicted about this -- discussion of cultural authenticity is by necessity related to cultural appropriation, but I am very uneasy as to how it has somewhat usurped the discussion of appropriation. This uneasiness is further cemented by the fact that a lot of discussion of cultural authenticity has to do with minority cultures adopting the dominant culture, or questions along the line of "If I can only write about my own culture/race/ethnicity without cultural appropriation, what can I write about?" And from the comments, it does seem like a majority of the people asking these questions are from European/American descent. I am not finger pointing, I swear. I know that's a horribly passive-aggressive way to say it, but I really don't want to call people out because I think it's unproductive, and because I am reading through all four threads and trying to suss out common themes.
   
   Which leads to...


2. Even if there is no such thing as cultural authenticity, the question of cultural appropriation is still present. Furthermore, I am not saying that you can only write about what culture/race/ethnicity that you belong to. Instead, I am saying that the problems inherent in cultural appropriation exist and will very likely exist for many, many decades to come. Also, the very act of writing about another culture, particularly one in which you are a part of the dominant culture that has a history of subjugating minority cultures, that very act is problematic.
   
   It is even more problematic when you look at means of colonization in the past and how much of colonization involves language and schooling and learning the mythos and culture of the colonizers.
   
   This is not limited to white American and/or European culture (see: Japanese culture with regard to Korean culture), but because white American and/or European culture was so often the colonizer in the past few centuries, I think deflecting the issue back to minority cultures avoids the larger issue.
   
   Does this suck? Yes.
   
   Is this fair? No.
   
   Does this mean you shouldn't write about it? No.
   
   Does this mean you have to think about it? No. Feel free to ignore it if you want.
   
   But even if you think you're writing in a vacuum, your readers are not reading in a vacuum. People read in historical context. I read Naomi Novik's Throne of Jade as a third culture kid with the (slight) knowledge of Qing Dynasty China and what happened to Qing Dynasty China, and even if Novik wrote without that in mind (which I don't think she did), that still doesn't make my reading experience any different.


3. And because rilina says it better than me and because I think it bears repeating many times:
   
   "It's very hard for a minority culture to "coopt" something from a dominant culture. I'm sorry if this doesn't seem fair to dominant culture folks (and I'm not saying it's impossible), but I think this is true. When cultural things flow in that direction, it's usually less appropriation and more assimilation." [emphasis in the original]


4. Unpopular thought about assimilation: I think if you are a hyphenated American or an American of color, claiming American culture as your own is problematic. I wish this weren't so, and I struggled against this in college. But the fact is, if your skin color is different from that of people around you, no matter what you think you are, people will very often treat you differently. They may be well-meaning and be very cautious about the subject of race, or they could just say incredibly stupid things, but the issue of race is always there.
   
   We aren't at the point where things are colorblind, and as such, cultural assimilation is problematic. No, I don't think this is fair, and yes, I think it is limiting, particularly when you don't want to feel different and are made to feel different. But again, sadly, things don't exist in a vacuum.


5. As an addendum to this: no, it isn't fair that minority authors are often corralled into minority fiction and said to write about the minority experience. On the other hand, since so few other people are writing about the minority experience, it's a lose-lose situation. I do think that limiting minority authors to the minority experience is very much like limiting female authors to the female experience, but... BUT! seeing the minority experience as a limiting factor can very much be as denigrating as the whole "OMG women writing about female things, the horror!"


6. Of course, if you look like the dominant culture but aren't from that culture, the issues are very different. But since there is much discussion about hyphenated Americans in the other comment threads, I would very much like to leave it out of this particular post and the comments to this post.


7. And now, look, even this post has become about minorities writing about minorities and not about dominant cultures writing about minorities and the inherent problems therein.
   
   I'm sorry, I'm really angry about this, and like rilina says, I think many of the issues here are like feminist issues, in which all discussions seem to go back to the men and femininsts must continue to argue why feminism is still relevant. I know this is a horribly uncomfortable topic, probably more so than feminism on LJ, because most of the people I know on LJ are female, whereas most of the people I know on LJ are not minorities in terms of skin color.
   
   I am highlighting this not because I want to call out people, but because I think discussion of cultural appropriation keeps skirting around this fact. I am highlighting skin color because despite what I'd like the world to be like, it is still a very important factor and one that can divide people at first glance.


8. In conclusion, no one is ever going to tell you that cultural appropriation is ok or that there is a way for a dominant culture to write about a minority culture without these problems rising up. If they do say that, I'm sorry, they're lying or they're from the far future, in which there is no race disparity, no racism, and all nations are on equal economic, political and cultural standing.
   
   This does not mean you shouldn't write about it. Nor does it mean you should write about it. I mean, I personally wish everyone would write about it, or include minority characters, or do something to change things so that the default of a character is not white male. But in the end, it means that even though you may think you're writing in a vacuum, you aren't, and, more importantly, no one is reading in a vacuum. So no matter how you think you should deal with this issue or disengage from it, writing another Euro-centric fantasy is still contributing to the mass of Euro-centric, non-ethnic fantasies out there, and writing a non-Euro-centric fantasy will by necessity run up against these issues.
   
   I wish there were an easier way, but I don't think there is.

Also, does anyone know about critical theory regarding race like Joanna Russ' How to Suppress Women's Writing?

Ok, um, flame away.

ETA: yhlee responds

ETA 2: Most recent link round up that I know of

Also, I am going to answer comments. I just need time to think and time to stop being overwhelmed.

ETA 3: ladyjax on discourse on race

Comments

[shati.livejournal.com]

I think that's an issue, but I agree with the main post's argument that both are appropriation. So I'm curious about your reasoning, if you're saying that exploration isn't, or that appropriation isn't -- well, isn't "the issue."

Basically, your comment strikes me as surprisingly short for one that looks to be disagreeing with the OP/declaring it irrelevant, and now I'm not sure I read you right. :)

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

I actually think appropriation is a nonissue. Or, it's a shadow issue.

...I need to lay down some background to make this make sense. I was raised in a lesbian separatist community. As a direct result, I tend to find that othering--whether one is othering one's self, or somebody else--is counterproductive. Separatism is all about Men As Other. There is a category of fiction (Heart of Darkness, anyone?) that is about non-white as Other. There is a buttload of work out there in which women or queers or non-Christians are the Other.

You know what?

I think all this fucking Othering is counterproductive. I'm all for sitting down and talking and finding out what we have in common, rather than exoticising the ways in which we are different.

Which is not to say that we aren't different, or that unique cultures should be assimilated into the dominant paradigm. Because cultural imperialism is, well, cultural imperialism.

What I'm saying is that an honest attempt to undertand and connect with each other as human beings and individuals is a hell of a lot more productive than most of the other options. What I'm saying is that I have friends and acquaintances and ex-lovers and potential lovers who are Korean and Chinese and Japanese and Creole and West Indian and African-American and of the American First Peoples and Peruvian and....

...and when I read, I do not differentiate between stories of Anansi and stories of Thor. They are all part of my mythology as a human being, and it does not matter in terms of that myth that I am a blue-eyed gringo.

...and you will get me to stop putting those people into my books when you break my keyboard and take my fingers away.

Because my books would be lies without them.

...and if that seems like appropriation, then I will live with the label. Because I am the color I am by an accident of birth. And as for the rest, I can only quote Yevtushenko.

I am
each old man
here shot dead.
I am
every child
here shot dead. (http://boppin.com/poets/yy_babiyar.htm)

I can't help being white. I can't help what people who happen to share my accident of melanin did, or do.

But I don't have to identify with them, or justify them, or agree with them.

[ckd]

What I'm saying is that an honest attempt to undertand and connect with each other as human beings and individuals is a hell of a lot more productive than most of the other options.

Yeah, that. (It's so nice knowing people who can express themselves effectively in writing; it saves me a heck of a lot of effort when I can just say "yeah, that". Unless that's appropriation, of course....)

[shati.livejournal.com]

I don't think oyceter was arguing that white people shouldn't write about nonwhite people, actually. Nor am I.

Okay, found quotes:

Also, the very act of writing about another culture, particularly one in which you are a part of the dominant culture that has a history of subjugating minority cultures, that very act is problematic.

And then:

Does this mean you shouldn't write about it? No.

So -- I'm mostly seeing a straw man, here. I don't think anyone here is against connecting as human beings, and I haven't seen anyone tell you not to write about races, nationalities, or ethnicities you aren't a member of. I don't think oyceter is Othering herself.

But I do think the way you choose to represent the world in fiction has consequences, and it has a context, and thinking about that is entirely pointy productive.

I can't help being white.

I honestly see no blame in this post. I see no one being attacked for being white, nor even for being white and writing about nonwhite people. Just the idea that awareness of the historic context, the power dynamics, the larger patterns, the effect your writing can have, that that's a good thing to have; or maybe just the idea that they'll exist whether or not you're aware. And that as long as there are problems with culture and race, there will be problems with representing culture and race.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

I think you're reading a defensiveness and a level of argument with oyceter into my posts that isn't there.

I am (largely) agreeing, rather.

[shati.livejournal.com]

Okay, and quite likely -- I wasn't sure how much of what you said was in argument.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

;-)

The internet is for miscommunication.

[oyceter]

(in which I use stupid metaphors)

Part of me agrees that all the Othering is counterproductive. The other (Other?) part reads past comments and thinks that while the discussion goes to minority appropriating from minority, minority appropriating from dominant culture, and dominant culture appropriating from dominant culture, no one seems to really be discussing dominant culture appropriating from minority culture. I do realize that saying this is also Othering, but... I don't know how to fix the problem if I don't point it out?

I guess it's like ... dundunDUN stupid metaphor! A bridge! I see some people on one side of a gap due to economics/race/gender/insert-trait-here, and I would like to build a bridge across the gap, and I can't do it myself because, wow, bridges, hard work. But because it's so hard getting people to see the gap, a) people keep walking into it and falling down screaming and b) no one will build a bridge.

Um, I'm guessing this is where we agree to disagree?

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

*g* I kind of thought I was discussing dominant culture appropriating from minority culture. Or, yanno, the part where I appear to be a member of the dominant culture, anyway, or at least because due to hair and skin color and good mimicry skills, I can pass. (And it is passing. These middle-class white people? Their base assumptions? They're Not Like Me. But I don't actually have a mother culture to fall back on: I'm just completely alienated, due to the circumstances of my upbringing.)

...I guess what I'm saying is, I'm *trying* to build a bridge. So maybe I don't see where we're disagreeing, really, except in that I don't think that acknowledging (celebrating!) cultural differences means... depersoning the guy on the other side.