(no subject)

[oyceter]

The boy was just watching "The James Bond Story" on Tivo, which had one of the Bond girls saying something about how sexism is most harmful when it is insidious, the point being that the sexism in the Bond movies was so overt that it was harmless. Err, right...

So that got me off on my now standard rant as to why there are not more cool female secret agents/spies/ninjas/actions heroes out there, and my god, I so wish that Alias had let Sydney be all dark and slightly amoral and sleep around and such like a female James Bond (but then we start getting into my multitude of issues with Alias). Then I started wishing that someone had written some sort of fanfic in which James Bond wakes up female and all sorts of cool things would happen and while it would have a good and nice point, it wouldn't be too polemic or anything to get in the way of the story. At that point I decided maybe I should go to bed, because some very strange thoughts were coming out of my head.

Read the last bit of Connie Brockway's My Pleasure. Alas, some of the book was ok, but I was just not in the right mood, or something, because I was getting very snarly with the book. At the end I sort of threw my mental hands up and out and out started ranting in my head on why in the world the guy always gets to be the super-cool fencer who was tortured in some French dungeon and slept around because *gasp* he had been hurt by love. And of course the heroine is more concerned with his sleeping around than his, oh say, sort of stalking her without her knowing it for the past few years or so. And of course if a heroine in a romance novel is ever hurt by love, she would never take it out on the opposite sex by having sex willy-nilly with everyone, because heroines hurt by love in romance novels always remain completely celibate and virginal so that the more experienced hero can warm her up to sex. And, ohhh, the heroine was feeling so bad for the poor widdle hero whose heart had been broken in the past and so slept around and felt debauched afterward.

I realized that if the situation had been so that the heroine were the promiscuous one and the hero had been the one feeling bad for her, I would have been wholeheartedly cheering for the hero and the heroine. I don't know if that is reverse-sexism or whatever you call it, but a lot of it is being completely fed up with how often the first situation happens in romance novels and how infrequently, if ever, the second ever occurs.

And I do realize that given the history of the world and such, it really isn't so historically accurate to have my nifty keen female assassins and spies and fencing masters and whatnot, but why why why can't I at least have heroes and heroines on a more equal level -- I mean, if the heroine can't be all stealthy and cool and such, maybe the hero could just be very nice and sweet and intellectual. But no, it's always the big, brawny alpha male. And the James Bond thing was saying how James Bond was the fantasy of every girl, at which point I sort of yelled at the TV. Maybe he was for me at a very tender age because I am not immune to the cuteness of Pierce Brosnan (I haven't watched many of the older ones at all), but I feel I really don't need a fantasy hero who goes and ruthlessly sleeps around with everyone and is in general pretty misogynistic, because despite what lots of fiction seems to think, I do not secretly wish to be dominated in the bedroom or anywhere else.

I feel a little better now that I have gotten this out of my system.

Anyway, now I want to read books with really kick-ass heroines. Bonuses for books that don't conform to standard gender stereotypes regarding sex and virginity and blah blah the girl must never sleep around if she's the heroine (evil girls, naturally, get to have evil villain sex) while the guy can go do whatever because he's a guy. Actually, what I really want is a romance novel in which the heroine is all tough and alpha-like and rescues the sweet but somewhat naive guy, but somehow, I'm thinking there aren't very many of those around. Also, the next book in which I encounter the good, virginal girl vs. the evil, skanky girl (remind me again why I stopped watching Alias?) I will throw against a wall.

Comments

[riemannia.livejournal.com]

Good rant :)

Harlequin is trying to produce the kind of books you're describing with their new line, Bombshell. (Although the guys are supposed to be alpha as well.) Whether or not they're succeeding, I couldn't tell you, because I haven't read any of them. The most I could recommend would be Evelyn Vaughn who writes for them. I read two of her non-Bombshell books and she's a cut above, I think.

However, if you want historicals with swashbuckling heroines, I'm not so sure there's much out there. (Not that I'm really well read in historical romances.)

I couldn't help thinking you're describing Lymond and Philippa, too, only Dunnett does a great job with them.

I do agree there are too many alpha rakes or whatever you want to call them, at least for my taste. But I guess they're very popular. That said, historicals are in a slump and I did hear at least one agent saying they need more proactive heroines in historicals.

[oyceter]

Thanks.

Hrm, will remember Evelyn Vaughn during the next bookstore run.

I loved Checkpoint but am still irked that while both Lymond and Philippa are broken by sex, Lymond reacts by sleeping with everything that moves while Philippa reacts by not being able to touch anyone. Sigh.

I'm getting really quite sick of alphas, mostly because there doesn't seem to be any other type of hero in the market.

[riemannia.livejournal.com]

I loved Checkpoint but am still irked that while both Lymond and Philippa are broken by sex, Lymond reacts by sleeping with everything that moves while Philippa reacts by not being able to touch anyone. Sigh.

Yes. It's not that either of these reactions can't happen to an individual. It's that in too many books each type (the whore, the untouchable) is exaggerated and gender stereotyped.

[oyceter]

Right.. it seems to be happening in everything I read these days. Very irksome.

[(Anonymous)]

Read The Ruins of Ambrai. It's a fantasy story taking place in a matriarchal society and the fact that the society is matriarchal isn't in any way a main point so it isn't too blatant if that's a worry to you.

[oyceter]

Thanks for the rec!

(btw, who is this?)

[oracne.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the stalking aspect of MY PLEASURE could've been a better source of angst. Usually Brockway goes right for that sort of thing.

[oyceter]

Yeah, that's another weird thing... the book didn't really fall into the category of funny or angsty. It was just sort of nondescriptly in between.

[oursin.livejournal.com]

Oh dear yes about that gender stereotype: there's one author who may be much better than I give her credit for, but I gave up in her first book when she had the standard pure heroine with an adversary who was both a raging practically out of control nymphomaniac, and calculatingly using sex for various extra-sexual reasons. Um: it's not as though as at any point she is shown thinking to herself that she will use her little problem for her malign purposes, she seems to be switching from lust-crazed to calculating depending on the particular scene. Grrrrr.

Jacqueline Carey managed to invert several stereotypes in the Kushiel trilogy, but I'm having difficulty in thinking of many others.

[oyceter]

Arrrgh, evil villain sex annoys me so much!

I'm sadly having a hard time thinking of other books inverting gender stereotypes too.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Try Madeleine Robins's Sarah Tolerance mysteries.

http://www.sff.net/people/madrobins/

[oyceter]

Oh, I remember seeing Point of Honor in the bookstore and being interested! Thanks!

[minnow1212.livejournal.com]

>And, ohhh, the heroine was feeling so bad for the poor widdle hero whose heart had been broken in the past and so slept around and felt debauched afterward.<

Heh. Love this.

[oyceter]

Glad to amuse ;).

Someday I shall write a handbook of rules for romance characters...

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

*g* Actually, James Bond Aversion is one of the reasons I love both The Avengers and The Man from UNCLE so much. If you want tough smart female spies, you could do worse than Cathy Gale and Emma Peel (Honor Blackman and Diana Rigg, both of whom went on to be Bond girls), either of whom would eat Alias' Sidney for breakfast.

And both John Steed and Napoleon Solo are much more attractive takes on the predatory male than Bond, if you ask me. For one thing, both of them have partners who give them endless punishment about their tomcatting, and both of them take getting shot down with grace and humor.

My personal favorite Napoleon Moment involves him making a pass at a young actress (played by a very cute young Shari Lewis, god help us all)

Girl: "You should go now. I have my reputation to think of."

Napoleon: (ruefully) "Well, you've *ruined* mine."

...and then he gets a ration of shit from Illya for not calling in when he was supposed to. Lovely deconstruction of Bond....

[rahael.livejournal.com]

Yes. When I came to the UK, I just could never get the appeal of Bond. I thought he was the most repellent man I ever came across on screen who wasn't meant to be repellent! OTOH I loved the Avengers and the Man from UNCLE>

(errm. still using my Alias Icon for this one, though it's seeming inappropriate in this thread!)

[oyceter]

Tee hee, sorry. I know lots of people on the FL like Alias, but the entire Sydney/Vaughn storyline makes me see red.

[oyceter]

Ooooo Emma Peel.

Ooooo. I should get Avengers from Netlix. Any specific episodes recommended?

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

*g*

'64 and below is Cathy Gale; '65-'67 is Emma. I would Avoid Anything Later.

Emma!

[oyceter]

Gotcha, thanks!

[molly_may]

I'm glad you posted this, because what you're looking for in a heroine is the same thing I'm looking for, so I'm taking notes on what others recommend in this thread.

I remember when the last James Bond movie was released a lot of the press around it was centered on Halle Berry's character, Jinx. She was being touted as the first Bond girl who was his equal, practically a female version of James Bond himself. But in the movie, she had to be rescued out of nearly every situation she got herself into. I was disappointed (but not particularly suprised) that the creators of the movie didn't seem to be able to create a female spy who really was the equal of Bond.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

They'd created that spy in the PREVIOUS MOVIE. Michelle Yeoh, who, as usual, kicked ass. But who did they offer a spinoff to? The useless Halle Berry.

[molly_may]

You're right, the Michelle Yeoh character could have kicked Jinx's ass up and down the street. I think that the Jinx movie did eventually get sidelined, probably because the producers realized that the character wasn't nearly as popular as they expected her to be.

[oyceter]

Nyargh, I know! It's always these heroines who look spunky and talk spunky but end up being rescued anyhow. Like Fred in Angel insisting she wasn't a damsel in distress and then fainting right into Wesley's arms.

having sex willy-nilly with everyone

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Jennifer Crusie, Fast Women. Sleeps with a guy, kisses a woman, before settling down with the hero.

Re: having sex willy-nilly with everyone

[oyceter]

Oh yeah! I liked Fast Women and loved Nell.

[taelle.livejournal.com]

IIRC, Catherine Asaro's Primary Inversion has tough heroine rescuing the hero.

[oyceter]

Thanks for the heads up!

[dendrophilous.livejournal.com]

Applause.

And I do realize that given the history of the world and such, it really isn't so historically accurate to have my nifty keen female assassins and spies and fencing masters and whatnot

That's one reason I write fantasy: different history. And I still have trouble with the stereotypes that my subconcious dredges up, based on this world.

[oyceter]

I think this is why I've been on a fantasy kick lately. It's the satisfying alternate history in which I can have my swashbuckling, historically inaccurate heroines.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I have to turn off all my critical facilities to watch a James Bond movie - and enjoy cool gadgets and chases and prettiness. Because this cheery, in-your-face machism is too boring and/or annoying.

I am seriously bored with the alpha male characters and dashing rakes.

[oyceter]

Yeah, me too.

I want alpha females!

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Sarah Dessen's YA novel This Lullaby kind of fits, if you squint at it right, but ... yeah, this is why I forgive For My Lady's Heart the bizarre dialect.

There is some play with these tropes in Kristine Smith's Code of Conduct series, but although I really, really like the books, the romance is the least satisfying aspect of them.

You know, I think Anita Blake is an attempt to do a female James Bond, only possibly not consciously. But the conflict between getting to be the suave hero who sleeps around and being a girl (which in a gender-stereotype-normative enviroment means wanting emotional attachments) may explain the mess of the last several books in the series.

[oyceter]

Oo, will look up the Dressen.

That's why I went out and bought For My Lady's Heart after having only read the synopsis and why I still like it, despite, as you say, the really weird dialect.

Interesting point re: Anita Blake.. I actually haven't read the series. I was thinking about it and then stopped after reading a few chapters of Narcisuss in Chains or something.

Wow, I can tell there aren't very many books with the play on stereotypes if even you can't think of very many.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Oh, I just remembered another: Susan Squires' Body Electric (http://www.livejournal.com/users/coffee_and_ink/290907.html).

[oyceter]

Thanks!

Female Spy Heroes

[kchew.livejournal.com]

OK, I was going to write about this on my own LJ, but...

I was thinking lately about the OVA for Read or Die, which has just the best premise in the entire world. The main character is a book-obsessed young woman who, in her other life, is a special agent for the British Library, codenamed "The Paper" (yes, my icon) and who has the ability to manipulate paper.

She isn't a typical special agent: she has glasses, dresses like a stereotypical dowdy librarian (sorry to all cool librarians reading this), and even when being dangled by a thread over New York, is ultra-polite in that very well-brought-up Japanese way. There's lots of action, which she can be good at if she doesn't have her nose in a book, and the three-episode show is lots and lots of fun, with James Bond-inspired opening credits. The manga, on the other hand, sucks rocks, as everything you love about Yomiko (her sweetness, her intelligence, her iron will when it comes to getting that book back) is trashed in favour of a shounen-style story with lots of bouncy girls and abusive relationships.

However, the OVA is really enjoyable for putting a very unusual and fun female spy forward. And, IMHO, the whole thing is worth watching just for the bookshopping sequence at the beginning.

Re: Female Spy Heroes

[oyceter]

Ooo, I loved that! Ended up buying it on Mely's rec. I was actually a bigger fan of Miss Deep because sometimes I get sick of the sweetness of anime heroines. But the reading! The gadgets! The relationship between Yomiko and Miss Deep!