Grown-up books

[oyceter]

mrissa was recently asking questions on adult books (as opposed to YA or children's, not necessarily erotica or porn) and when various people started reading them, if they were ever restricted from doing so, etc.

I think one of the interesting byproducts of growing up basically speaking a different language than my parents meant that they had no idea what I was reading. Still probably don't. I figure that by now my mom has probably found my hidden romance novel stash back at home and sort of knows what they are, but by now I don't care as much as I did back in high school. I should also give my parents points for knowing more than they let on, but seeing as how I have yet to experience parenthood for myself, I have no idea what they know and what they pretend to not-know, and I find it rather comforting to pretend all around that there are general subjects everyone just not-does and not-knows about.

Anyhow. I think the very first adult book I read was Lord of the Rings back in sixth grade (11 yrs. old?). Previously I had pretty much always stayed in the kids' section of the library and dug out books like Gordon Korman (I should reread those and see if they're still funny), various classics, etc. Lord of the Rings was a giant, giant eye-opener. First, I used to constantly sift through all the books in the kids' section looking for fairy tales and myths and various retellings, and in LotR, I discovered that there was an entire new world, a fat world that filled three volumes and didn't explicitly retell any fairy tales or myths. After Lord of the Rings, I headed up to the adult section to look for more books like it (it's really hard to do when there are no genre categories and one is making judgments based on spines) and found Terry Brooks, and, subsequently, the genre known as fantasy.

I've never been told that I was too young for a book (although some time down the line I realized for myself that that was the case). I've never been personally stopped from reading something I wanted to read. I've only actually talked about books and reading to very few people in my life prior to LJ because, well, most people don't quite understand the excitement or most people haven't read the books I wanted to talk about. LJ's been a giant blessing because it's finally allowed me to burble on about reading and books and bibliophilia in general to people who don't think I'm nuts for reading all the time. I sort of felt invisible in a good way when I was reading -- outside of a select group of people, no one really ever knew what I was reading or what I thought about it.

I stumbled across my first romance novel in seventh grade when a group of girls in my class were gathered around secretively and reading the sex scenes. I used to make my mom drive me to the university library so I could sit and hunt down romance novels, because at that age, I was way too embarrassed to buy them. Usually my idea of a really good time included my mom dropping me off at the library or the bookstore for a good three hour chunk (at the very least) and going out to run errands or shop and pick me up later. So, I had pretty much every freedom when it came to reading.

I was pretty much the first person in my house to get horribly addicted to the internet, and I hogged it up every second I could. My mom and dad are not so great at computers (my mom finally figured out email this year), and neither of them uses the computer much for recreation, though my dad goes to Wine Spectator online. Way back then, when we first got it, I don't think they ever used the computer, much less the internet, at all. So I merrily stumbled into various pornographic and erotic sites (it's embarrassing, but most of my sex ed comes from books and the internet), found X-Files fanfiction of all ratings, blithely disregarded all the NC-17 ratings (I was probably about 15 when I found them). I did worry the first few times I clicked on the "I am 17" link and wondered about pornography laws in Taiwan and international litigation though.

I still remember the giant flamewar thing that happened over some fanfic authors threatening to turn kids under 17 reading their stories to the authorities. I'm probably not making them feel better...

I never quite understood ratings, probably because I'd never been told before what to read and what not to, and by golly, the MPAA or the V-Chip sure as hell weren't going to. My parents have never said I couldn't see an R-rated movie, although they had a giant fuss when I watched The Crow at home about the inappropriateness. I sort of rolled my eyes at them and had a screaming fit (I was a sophomore in high school at this point). I used to feel like I was in some sort of alternate universe when I listened to other parents telling their kids what they could and couldn't read/watch, or having kids tell me they weren't allowed to read/watch something, because it just wasn't something I had previously considered. I mean, I knew obviously that my parents would probably not be too happy knowing I was reading smutty MSR fic online, but I was never explicitly told not to.

Now I'm probably freaking out all the parents...

I don't know. I'll probably feel differently if I ever have kids, but I always felt the ratings were a bit silly, and that reading all that stuff technically too old or not appropriate for my age never really hurt me any. Now I'm super-paranoid about this type of thing because I'm not sure about appropriateness all the time. My roommate asked me once for recs for her sister, as we both seemingly liked the darker side of fantasy (her sister was going through an Anne Rice phase and was in ninth grade maybe), and I unwittingly mentioned Anne Bishop's Black Jewels trilogy, which has pretty bloody rape scenes and a hero who is basically a sex slave. I don't know. It probably was inappropriate, but I feel that young readers can actually make up their own minds. And Anne Rice isn't exactly hugs and puppies.

I suppose this is mostly to say that I was exposed to various things my parents probably didn't know about at a fairly young age, that I never engaged in critical conversation with them, like parents are supposed to do. And I don't think that my parents were bad parents because they didn't know this was going on. I mean, one, language difference, and two, I was a very private child. I also know that I was digging up material on sex when I was interested in it (not in real life, just sort of the concept and the general taboo-ness), and that prior to being interested in it, I pretty much had giant anti-sex blinders on. I never even realized that Sleeping Beauty/Talia waking up pregnant was weird in any sort of way, nor did I question Zeus pouring into Danae's chamber and the conception of Theseus, or the "wooing" of Leda, etc. And by the time I had taken up a sort of interest in sex, all the kids at school knew more about it than I did anyway, and they were telling various sex-related jokes that went right over my head (ex. I never understood Kenny's predilection for jokes about semen until a few years down the line, since I never thought sailors were all that funny to begin with).

I think if someone had told me not to read something, I would have been incredibly insulted and tried even harder to dig it out. And as I said previously, I don't think it hurt me any. I waded through a ton of genre dreck, but because of that, I know a good deal of the genre tropes and cliches. I also have a huge drawer in my head full of strange information that sometimes proves useful -- my English teacher once asked us who the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse were, an answer I only knew via Talismans of Shannara, haha. I learned a lot of standard things like that backward, through reading references in books and finally figuring out that they were references to some grander thing I hadn't yet encountered. I ended up with a fairly good vocabulary, although I never thought of it that way. I always just thought that the words on all the vocabulary lists the teachers were giving out were stupid and dumbed down because I usually knew most of them. Although the dumbed down thing could also be the case. Anyhow, it certainly helped with SATs. And I don't think premature knowledge of sex and/or violence hurt me, although we should probably wait for more years to go by till we judge that one ;). Strangely, I had a giant appetite for violence and action movies and swashbuckling at a young age, but now I'm incredibly shirkish when it comes to graphic violence. Or non-graphic violence. Sometimes just guns will get me cowering. I hope that if I have kids, they will talk about what they read with me. Actually, first off, I hope desperately that they will read, a sure indicator that they most likely will not ;). But I also hope I won't ever limit their reading habits or try to make them only read "good" books too.

Comments

[thewildmole.livejournal.com]

*thinks way, way back* IIRC, the first adult book I read was Les Miserables in the sixth grade.

I learned to read when I was very young and don't remember a time when I wasn't reading. I think I graduated very quickly from kids' material to more adult books via a librarian family friend. The first "sex" book I read was that towering monument to WTF known as Flowers in the Attic and its sequels. Duuuuuuude *g*. They did what? With *who*?

Like you, I was never particularly censored, but I did stop reading things if I felt I wasn't ready for them. I also have the brain chock full o'trivia and a vocabulary that many of my friends told me made me sound "polished" - whatever that meant to a twelve-year-old. In reading interests and quantities, I far outstripped my parents, who were never really readers. I don't think they ever really knew what to do about that other than pat me fondly on the head and view me like some kind of interesting exhibit.

With my kids, I've never really limited what they've read unless it was clearly inappropriate for their age or similar criteria. What I mostly try to do is talk to them about what they're reading/what they've read. That gives me a far better idea of not only what they're interested in, but also how they're processing what they're reading. Plus, it gives great jumping off points to other genres or categories. For example, The Boy really liked George R. R. Martin, so I pointed him in the direction of some medieval history. My youngest has been delving a bit into women's biographies and issues. I sent her The Bookseller of Kabul and Promised the Moon for her to read about women in other parts of the world and women who have pushed against the cultural/social boundaries of their times.

I hope that if I have kids...I hope desperately that they will read...

IMO, I learned to read and love it because it was modeled for me by teachers and friends of my parents. They took an interest in me. They bought me books. They took me to libraries. They asked me questions to find out what I was interested in. Because of that, I did the same with mine. Saturday was Library Day many times. When we went to the mall, we'd always visit the bookstore and I'd try to buy them a book each time. Every now and then, I'd turn off the TV and tell them to go read a book (and they would!).

And, yeah, not just the "good" books *g*. Sometimes things become the unlikeliest of springboards. I got interested in genetics because of (wait for it) X-Men comics :). Reading Robin Hood at a young age sparked an interest in English history that I have to this day.

*reins in babbling*

[oyceter]

Hahaha, I remember sneaking off to read my cousin's VC Andrews books ;). I think I started out with one where the uncle has an unhealthy interest in his niece, who looks like her mother. Oh, the weird incestiness.

How did you tell when you (or your kids) weren't ready for something? I never quite thought of it that way, but I'd stop reading books if they were too scary (I'm easily scared) or if the language or something was so grand that I got bored to death.

I've found the strangest things to be springboards. Getting interested in anime and manga back in high school lead to learning Japanese and a degree in East Asian Studies, and I've been interested fairy tales and myths since I can remember.

That's so cool that you had reading modeled for you! So different from my own experience... my mom said she used to read aloud to me often when I was a kid, but I don't actually remember this. When I really got going, I never ran into adults who took an interest in my reading (though my parents sort of silently suffered driving me to libraries and bookstores and letting me buy lots of books). Most of the talk and interest in things I read came from my own circle of friends.

[thewildmole.livejournal.com]

How did you tell when you (or your kids) weren't ready for something?

For me, it was largely if (and this is hard to explain) something I was reading in the book hit one of my buttons. I'm not a huge fan of horror/scary stuff and I was once reading a book called Ghost Story when I was about 11 or 12. The book started freaking me out so I put it aside and didn't finish it. If it had freaked me out in the good way (Oooooo, that's scary!), I probably would have kept reading it. However, it was freaking me out in the bad way (making me very, very afraid. period).

With my kids, part of it was very easy. If my child is, say, seven? I'm not going to give them The Thorn Birds or a VC Andrews book or something like that. That's the part having to do with age appropriate reading in a fairly strict definition of the term.

The definition of appropriate changed as they got older. A lot of that happened through talking with them, finding out what they thought and how they processed the world around them. In those situations, if they wanted to read something/asked for a book that I was on the fence about, my response was less a straight-out "No, that's not appropriate for you" and more of a "Do you know what the book is about?" and "You've said X about Y. What makes this book look good to you?" Amazon was a big help because they include synopses and reviews - I could look and so could they. IMO, there is a point where you need to start showing your kids that you trust their decision-making abilities - at least in small ways - and books was one of those.

There were occasions I told them "no" in that I wasn't buying the book and they could with their own money or get it from the library; however, they became much fewer and farther between. At a certain point (depending on the individual maturity level of each kid), it was "You're X years old. I trust you to make your own choice on whether this is something you want to or should read."

That's so cool that you had reading modeled for you!

I love being able to talk about books with my kids :). My oldest doesn't read much more than fashion magazines anymore (:P). My son reads a lot of fantasy/scifi and I've had the fun of steering him towards George R. R. Martin, William Gibson and some others. My youngest was assigned Tim O'Brien's short story The Things They Carried and that made her want to read his other works. Since I lurve Mr. O'Brien *g*, I was able to recommend the rest of TTTC and some of his other books.

It's a continual cycle. Even if you don't have kids to influence, you get to talk to the people at the bookstore as well as the people who read your LJ by virtue of your reviews and fun posts like this :).

[oyceter]

For me, it was largely if (and this is hard to explain) something I was reading in the book hit one of my buttons.

I think that makes sense -- I was pretty easily scared (still am), so I never ever touched Christopher Pike or RL Stine or all those other horror books (or even a ghost in the attic, or whatever that was) until one of my friends insisted Pike wasn't scary. Anything that even remotely struck me as scary, I quickly put down, and half the time I'd turn the scary cover face down too ;).

And I don't think I'd give Thorn Birds to anyone, regardless of age ;).

My favorite part of LJ is finding all these other people who share my interests and getting to gush and get recommendations and everything ^_^.

[angeyja.livejournal.com]

More later but I do think there can be a good deal of variance. Just a small example, Ben was given a YA book to read as part of his English class that involved the killing of a keeshond; we spent a lot of time working through nightmares the week after that. I've had a few weird experiences too. But that was a real out of the blue odd moment.

I don't think my parents restricted either. They simply weren't readers and we didn't have texts around, and my school library prior to highschool didn't have much. At that point (my first job) I started working in a library. I read a fair bit of SF/F by choice, and I don't think most of this was YA.

I grew up in the seventies too. Don't know if that makes a difference but one thing I do know is that we really didn't talk much about sex or violence. The one book I got into trouble with, although it did teach me about my personal twitches was a SF book that came in the mail, not a good book I'm sure, which contained a very graphically violent scene that I still have nightmares about. I do know for my self I've always had more trouble with that, and anything that that relates to abuse, than anything related to sex.

I'm still thinking about this a good deal. It's led me back into the Pinker book I read a few months back and how we mature, and back too to the realization that a good deal of this happened for me through books, not people.. most of which were self-chosen, and the importance of writing. Interesting stuff.

[oyceter]

Don't know if that makes a difference but one thing I do know is that we really didn't talk much about sex or violence.

It was a lot like that (and still is) in my family as well -- the generational difference and the cultural difference are probably both large factors. I never ever told my mother about things I found disturbing in books, although I do remember being frightened that the sun was going to turn into a black hole at around the age of seven (my mom sleepily reassured me that wouldn't happen). I do remember first learning about periods and the like via Judy Blume books, though mostly the descriptions just confused me.

It's interesting, I think most of how I matured was through books as well. I know a lot of the beliefs I have are through some sort of book idea osmosis -- I'm much, much more liberal than the rest of my family.

[ann1962]

My reading wasn't restricted by my parents either. They had no clue. They were just happy I wanted to go to the library than other places. I even had adult neighbours that would supply me with "romance novels" and other age inappropriate offerings. I trolled the library's adult section when I must have been 10-12 years old checking out what I now think were the most inappropriate novels. LOL The trick is to look for the worn pages, that is where the "best" stuff is. In so called "good books" that teenagers look for, there would be a streak of darker pages along the edge that would alert the brighter teenagers, saving them the work of actually reading the book to find the "good" stuff. The librarians never stopped me and in fact in grade 7 or 8, we were allowed to read a Judy Blume novel I think, can't remember the name, where the character gets an abortion. We needed our parents permission, I got it, and this was at Catholic school. Irony indeed.

I think if kids are old enough to find it, read it, want to read it then they are probably old enough to do so. Although google images scares me for my kids. The internet saves kids the work of going to the library like we all had to do. But it also puts out much more scary stuff that hadn't been filtered by collection development librarians.

Great post.

[oyceter]

My mom always used to complain about me reading and all the books I bought ;). I don't think she quite sees the point of reading for fun.

Now that I think about it, it feels vaguely scandalous that my parents never monitored my internet usage. I read all those articles for parents on positioning the computer in a well-trafficked area, talking with their kids about various sites, etc. and nothing like that ever happened with me. I remember reading things like that back in high school as well, and mostly being horrified at the thought of having my mother monitor my internet sites.

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

It just occurred to me that I read an awful lot of Jack L. Chalker while I was in middle school, which has weird stuff involving sex and slavery and a good many of the author's repetitive personal obsessive writing kinks. Or something. I think by then, my parents were so used to strange covers with scantily-clad women on them (we used to have to cover some of our paperbacks to take them to school lest teachers look at us askance), they didn't even blink. Not that my parents went anywhere near sf/f if they could help it.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Me too! Most of his male protagonists and some of his butch female ones everntually get transformed into humungo-breasted submissive hookers. Somehow I managed to not draw any conclusions from that when I was fifteen, but now I think, "Whoa, weird creepy fetish." Ditto regarding Piers Anthony and his fixation on the panties of pre-pubescent girls. With that reading, I'm amazed that I never discovered John Norman, who completes the Strangely Addictive When You're A Teenager SF Perv Triumvirate.

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've ever seen a John Norman book, which is probably just as well. ^_^

And I don't think I noticed the Piers Anthony one until much later, too.

The sad thing is, I think I still own Jack L. Chalker books. Probably the WELL OF SOULS and RINGS OF THE MASTER books. IABIK.

[oyceter]

It's so weird how much stuff went right over my head! Like Piers Anthony and that whole leering geekboy thing. Or sex in fairy tales. The first time I read a critical essay on fairy tales, it blew my mind because it had never occured to me that Sleeping Beauty or Rapunzel's pregnancies meant, well, sex had been had!

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I was at least eighteen before I realized that in Anne McCaffrey's DRAGONQUEST F'nor and Brekke had sex, and at least twenty before I realized that even though this hos behavior is depicted as a positive and loving thing, in fact, he raped her.

A LOT went over my head.

[oyceter]

I know! Ditto with me with F'(what's his face) and Lessa.

[oyceter]

That's a lot like my roommate's experience -- her brother used to keep close watch over their house's copy of LotR and only grudgingly allowed others to read it ;). Her entire family reads genre...

Me, completely the opposite. I had to scrounge for myself, passed books around a circle of friends, and later on looked for recs via the internet.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Gordon Korman: still funny. Yes.

[oyceter]

Good ^_^.

Oh man, I should pick those up again.