The Avengers (2012)

[oyceter]

• BLACK WIDOW WAS AWESOME THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!


• Now I totally want Black Widow backstory in which she is a dangerous spy and assassin and how SHIELD recruits her. And PTSD fic with Black Widow and Hawkeye.


• Joss, still mad at you re: Firefly but so glad they got you for this movie. Really good dialogue, and omg, the ensemble! He actually made it work!


• Loki + everyone = win. Especially loved the Loki and Black Widow scenes, Hulk throwing Loki around like a rag doll (HEEE), Loki manipulating everyone from the inside, and omg that beginning scene where Loki goes and takes someone's eye out to classical music. Also, love that he gets to wear more pretty suits with scarves.


• To my surprise, really liked Hawkeye and Hulk. And now I kinda want more science-talk with Tony Stark and Bruce Banner.


• Love that the giant megalomaniac villain did things like play mind games and get captured in the first half ofthe movie.


• Schwarma!


• I think Cap actually got the worst of it in the movie, having to be straight man to Tony Stark (puns yay). Although I really like that he was the one who put together the plans for the civilians.


• Oh Joss, you really did have to kill someone, didn't you? I'm just glad it wasn't Maria Hill, who, btw, is a BAMF.


• Loki calls Black Widow "quim"?!?!


• Phil Coulson and his geek crush! Awwwww!


• The excellent parallel with Iron Man and the ending of the Captain America movie.


• Nick Fury is a BAMF. Though we knew that already.


• Totally love Iron Man fixing the ship. Engineering porn, yay!


• LOVED the Black Widow and Hawkeye fight scene.


• Tactics! Strategy! Attempts to minimize civilian damage! People who are the heroes of their own movies acting as backup or defense! Teamwork!

Comments

[oracne]

YES YES YES.

I LOVED IT TOO.

*FLAIL*

[oyceter]

Yaaaayyyyyy!!!!

[genarti]

YESSSSSSSSSSS to all of this. All of it! I'm totally going to see it again soon; I spent basically the entire movie full of glee.

I was really annoyed about the Coulson death in re: Whedon's predictability, but then my friend found some announcement in which Marvel editorial said that that decision came from them, and they didn't know Joss had a reputation for impaling people. So now I'm significantly less annoyed.

[oyceter]

Oh that is interesting! I kind of was sad Coulson got killed off, but I was for some reason very afraid Nick Fury was going to, so it relieved me more than anything else.

[sophisted]

I think it's probably because Coulson isn't a comic book character and therefore is more expendable than the rest. And I honestly don't think Fury would have incited the same scope of grief in any of the Super characters.

[oyceter]

Ahahaha, oh Fury, you manipulative bastard! I hadn't realized Coulson was unique to the movieverse, though that definitely upped the chances of his being killed...

[vonniek]

Going into the movie, I had no idea I was going to come out most excited about Black Widow, Hawkeye and Hulk but wow, Joss did a fantastic job fleshing them out. I am mostly !!! about Black Widow and still dazed about that fantastic scene between her and Loki. Really evocative dialogue there as well. "Red in my ledger." "Love is for children; I owe him a debt." And yes, Loki did call Black Widow the Victorian equivalent of the c-word. I was all, *blink blink* then "... I guess that's one way to get past the censors: use a really old-fashioned cuss word."

The thing that tickles me most about Black Widow is that the fact her story is a fairly archetypal "an anti-hero with a dark past seeking redemption, while having brooding manpain" except we so rarely see this with heroines. Female characters with dark pasts atoning for their sins tend to get killed, and instead, we may get a Black Widow movie about her backstory! How freakin' cool is that?

The Black Widow/Hawkeye (or Black Widow & Hawkeye -- where they sleep together seems almost beside the point) hits so many of my narrative kinks like you wouldn't believe. I need to read ALL THE FIC.

[vonniek]

*whether* they sleep together. Geez. I need more caffeine.

I also enjoyed the hell out of Loki. He was a fun villain with a great backstory; I'm vaguely interested in reading about him in fic, except a large part of the fandom seems to be about Woobie!Loki and how he was treated so horribly and Oh! If only he was loved properly! Which I'm not interested in. Ah, well.

[oyceter]

OMG. OMG. I want so much Black Widow now. And I was all prepared to be disappointed so I would be happy if she only got one good action scene, but she is SO COOL! She has spy!angst! She has a dark past! She has obligations and debts! She is so focused on her work and so professional! She beats up hordes of people while TIED TO A CHAIR! I am so excited about more Black Widow backstory!

I mostly haven't been in the fandom, but can totally see how they would woobify Loki heh. I love how petty and evil and grandiose and all he is!

[mme_hardy]

Thing is, Loki *was* loved properly and by all accounts he was just as much the darling of the family as Thor. It all went bad, but not because he was badly treated.

[oyceter]

I haven't finished the Thor movie yet, but I so hate the "genetics will tell" and "adoption is bad" subtexts in what I've seen so far! And of course the less physical, brown-haired person is jealous of the blond jock.

That said, Loki as a character is just so great!

[mme_hardy]

The one line that really made me wince in AVENGERS was Thor's "Well. Adopted." Especially bad in a movie for kids.

This is probably my subtext rather than the movie's, but I took THOR as more being "Do not dump your adopted kid's heritage on him as an adult" because that was the shock that turned him from beloved member of the family to eeeeeeeeevil.

[oyceter]

Yeah, that bit felt really OOC to me. Not necessarily the sentiment, but definitely the flippant nature of it.

[genarti]

Yeah, I agree. I could see Loki making that comment, or even one of their Asgardian friends who didn't show up in this film. And I could see Thor making some kind of "...That doesn't mean I am going to rack up that kind of bodycount for the fun of it, don't worry" comment, but not that one. It was flippantly dismissive in a way I have trouble wrapping my head around for Thor, who spends the whole movie going "MY BROTHER, STOP BEING A JERK AND COME HOME TO YOUR FAMILY WHO LOVES YOU."

[oyceter]

Yeah, definitely! And I could even see Thor doing a less-flippant version of "Um, I love him and he is my brother, but he is NOT BEING GOOD right now," but the tone was really jarring despite the laughs it got.

[alyndra]

The only way that line worked for me was by recalling that in his movie, his character was established as someone who definitely could make deep and thorough changes to his personal worldview quite rapidly; I guess if you are a super advanced alien who is thousands of years old, you can either be adaptable or not.

So I took the line as meaning, ok, he's come to terms with Loki not being on the side of the good guys anymore. Which was a direct change from/result of the conversation he just had with Loki.

Your mileage may vary!

[cofax7]

except we so rarely see this with heroines

Yeah. The only one that really comes to mind is Xena. Which is pretty cool, actually.

[mme_hardy]

"(or Black Widow & Hawkeye -- where they sleep together seems almost beside the point)"

This. I so seldom get a close, tight male/female relationship that isn't garnished with sex. The biggest one I can think of in fannish media is Modesty Blaise/Willie.

[oyceter]

YES! I don't really care what they do with Black Widow and Hawkeye as long as there's a ton of spy angst and obligation and debt and PTSD!

[mme_hardy]

Didn't you just love "That's not how *I* remember Bucharest"! I mean, there is history there.

It is a wee bit sad, though. Black Widow and Hawkeye are buds, Bruce Banner and Iron Man are buds (the Hulk is iffy) and Thor and Cap are left all alooooooone.

[oyceter]

YES! I just... SPY ANGST! PTSD!!! I WANT THE MOVIE SO BAD NOW.

I felt kind of bad for Thor and Cap not getting as many interesting interactions, except Thor's interactions with Loki were so juicy! And he is so sad and confused! And I do think they could have done more with Steve, but overall, I am SO GLAD Joss decided to flesh out the characters who aren't going to get their own personal sequel. I just. Bruce Banner! Who knew?!

[ide_cyan]

There's a few episodes of The Sandbaggers that could satisfy the spy angst requirements.

[lady_ganesh]

Cap and Tony were shaking hands at the end though, all friendly-like! I am hoping he develops a "So, you're on Earth in the 21st Century" guide for Thor and Cap. (And of course Thor has Jane, on her island.)

[mme_hardy]

I said to my husband that this was the first time I had EVER given a damn about the Hulk. Ever. Not only did I care about Banner (such a great line), but the Hulk was freakin' scary.

Can I has Black Widow/Hawkeye movie NOW plz? NOW?

A lot of good acting there; in particular, Captain America took a totally thankless role and put some pain into it. He really was the All-American Boy out of place and time.

[oyceter]

Yes! I don't care about Hulk at all and never read the comics, but I kinda love the bumbly scientist thing! And he and Tony have geek outs!

I was a bit disappointed in the Captain America bits, largely because I loved the character so much in his own movie, and I felt they kind of took out some of what I liked so much (willingness to do the crap job and not complain or yell at people), but I love that he is the strategist!

[mme_hardy]

I thought Whedon did a genius job of assembling all those characters and actually giving all of them meaningful screen time, but yes, Cap got the short end of the stick. Future movies need to be rly careful not just to make him comic relief.

That was what I thought was so great about the actor, though. He's genuinely got that Aryan pretty boy thing going, but he did an excellent job, with very few lines, of conveying real pain.

[sanguinity]

I liked that we got to see Black Widow scared, but moving forward anyway. And we got to see her shaken, but again, still moving forward. And we got to see her exhausted, and again, shaking it off and still moving on to the next thing. And I was really worried that the one woman on the cast was going to be underpowered compared to the males-with-superpowers, but instead we got someone who is goddamned competent, to the point that you don't really notice that she's mortal and Cap isn't, because no one can lay a hand on her.

I'm a bit curious about Captain America's response to Black Widow. We saw lots of pairwise interactions between the cast, but not really that pair. And he's an old-fashioned kind of guy with chivalry deep in his bones -- there was one point in the final fire-fight where he held his shield for Black Widow and Hawkeye had to find his own cover -- but at no point was he underestimating her because she's female. (Then again, I haven't seen the Captain America movie, so the only stuff I know about him is what was in this film.)

[oyceter]

Yes! I love so much that Black Widow is so COMPETENT! She is scared, and Loki gets to her, and Hulk is terrifying, but she keeps going! And she is the one who goes for the tesseract to put a stop to the whole thing! I was really worried about her and Hawkeye (less Hawkeye because I am not emotionally attached to his comic) because she isn't superpowered but omg it kind of makes her even more awesome. Especially the fight with her and Hawkeye, where it's just so clear that she is KICKASS.

My general impression of Cap and Black Widow was mostly of respect? Like, I got the sense that they were working together as strategists and not as the big flashy members of the team. I really like that in the movie they don't go much with his chivalry; he's much more of a... I protect people because I think that's what is the right thing to do kind of guy? I was actually a bit sad about his characterization in Avengers, because I really hearted him in his own movie, but I figure being decades displaced out of time will do that to you.

[mme_hardy]

I thought they did an excellent job of making the two mortals on the team useful, while not lying that they're as useful in an all-out firefight. Black Widow made it by, as you say, being sneaky and indomitable, and Hawkeye made it by providing long-range attacks the superguys can't. (God, am I geeking out? Yes, I am geeking out. It is sad.)

I just... when you get somebody who really *gets* comics without being a disturbing fanboy, and who can balance multiple characters, and can write fantastic dialogue, and doesn't think women are just there for decoration, it's a wonderful thing. I was so pumped.

I did think we got one too many ass-shots of Black Widow, though?

[sanguinity]

Oh, five too many, probably. But definitely that ass-shot of her talking to Loki, that I could have done without.

And yes, not lying that they're as useful in a firefight! Their utility comes from very strategic application of their very particular skills! And that some of their cleverness is going to have to be applied to not letting themselves become vulnerabilities/liabilities. Actually, I really kinda liked how much time Hawkeye spent running away in that last firefight. (Not terribly much, but some!) He was physically weak (compared to everyone else) and a potentially weak spot in the team because of that, and so sometimes his most strategically useful move was to run and hide. And that doing so isn't a sign of failure or uselessness or wev. And I especially appreciated that they showed that with Hawkeye and not with Black Widow.

[oyceter]

Definitely a few too many ass-shots of Black Widow. I don't think I would have noticed if it weren't for her costume. I am just so glad they got Joss for it! I think a TV writer was especially a good idea, because he did all the ensemble stuff so well!

[sanguinity]

You'd recommend his film? The only one I saw was Thor. I'm considering going back to the Iron Man films -- that is a fun character! -- but I had presumed that Captain America was going to be jingoism all the way down.

She is so seriously kickass. I want a movie that's all about her.

Hopefully, one that has another woman or three in it. And that they end up in the same room together at some point, talking about something other than a man. You know. ;-)

[oyceter]

I actually kind of would? I mean, with the obvious caveats. I saw the Iron Man movies on the plane or something, but while I like Tony Stark in little bits, I don't like how it's all about him. Also, military-industrial complex LIEK WHOA. But then I watched Captain America for the period clothes, and kind of got quite a bit of a crush on Steve Rogers.

It is about as non-jingoistic as a movie with Captain America in WWII can be, with absolutely hilarious OTT acting with Hugo Weaver. I kept seeing him go "MISTER ANDERSON...." I just liked the Steve Rogers character a lot in it because he was so much about doing what was right for that reason, and that included things like non-typically-heroic stuff.

But yes. OMG I want so many women spies for Black Widow. OMG. She needs a wily, tricksy older woman trainer who betrays her and she can't trust and turns out to love her like a daughter all along except that doesn't stop the lying.

[thomasyan]

I liked the first Iron Man movie quite a bit. I skipped the second one. I'm not sure how well our tastes align, but I thought Captain America was okay; I'm not sure how I would compare it to Thor, which was also okay.

I was afraid I'd go into Avengers with my expectations too high. I did enjoy it, but I don't know if I just didn't calibrate my expectations right or not, so found it funny, but not entirely satisfying. Possibly I enjoyed Cabin in the Woods more.

It was great that Black Widow kicked ass and didn't have (m)any stereotypical problems usually afflicting female characters.

[seekingferret]

Captain America is jingoism all the way down. It's also got some Nazifail, which I wrote about when I saw the movie. But... and bearing in mind that in general I'm more okay with jingoism than you, but I liked that it was the good kind of jingoism, where America is only okay to be proud of and fought for when it stands up for its ideals. And it actually confronted what happens when you believe in America and fight for America and then America lets you down, in this shockingly clever middle section where they're using Steve as propaganda tool for America even though he hasn't fought (and when I say shockingly clever, I mean it's shockingly clever down to the level of they coordinated it with a scene in Iron Man II where Tony addresses a world's fair with almost identical choreography, to show the path America followed after World War II in Stark relief)

I think Iron Man is actually probably worse on jingoism grounds, because its central narrative is that an arms dealer gains a conscience, then decides he can actually protect America better by using his weapons to become America's conscience. Whereas Captain America's central narrative is that America chose to give its weapons to a man with a conscience, and I know it's a fantasy and a delusion, but it's such a compelling one about an America choosing to live up to its better self.

[lady_ganesh]

In addition to what others have said, one of the things I really liked about the Captain America movie was that it felt much more like a WWII movie than I'd expected, rather than an Avengers movie that used the war as backdrop. I mean, it still is Clearly Made in 2011, but not to the degree I anticipated.

[oyceter]

Yes! My favorite parts were actually not the combat, but the bits about Steve doing the song-and-dance propaganda stuff. I hadn't even realized it wasn't in the comics.

[lady_ganesh]

It was so perfect! And it gave them a chance to show so much stuff about who Steve was. (And I grew up with my grandmother's WWII stories and a wonderful PBS afternoon show that showed old movies just as they would've been shown in the theaters, newsreels and all, and so I just wallowed in nostalgia for that bit.)

[tempested_bird]

Can I just have like 9 million of Jeremy Renner's babies already?! Seriously, holy crap.

On a different note, though, I was actually surprised by how much I loved this movie. I dislike Joss Whedon (esp. because of Firefly), but by the end of the movie I found myself saying, "Okay, Joss, you win this round. I'll give you this one."

I totally went and had shawerma afterward.

[oyceter]

I do not know who he is outside of the movie but given how little I thought of Hawkeye before, damn!

I was so conflicted about this movie! I was first just hoping Natasha would get at least an action scene and not just be eye candy, and kind of resigning myself to be bored at big action scenes. And this is after watching Captain America and liking it despite all my expectations. And then I heard Joss was doing it, and thought he probably would give Natasha a bit to do, but Joss has fallen down hard on the feminism thing before. Though he was good at ensembles, so I was glad about that.

But I am just SO GLAD he got all the characters and they all had moments and then other moments and unexpected combinations (Natasha and Loki! Bruce and Tony!). So yeah. You did good on this one, Joss.

We wanted to get shawerma after but all the stores were closed! =(

[thomasyan]

Jeremy Renner was great in The Hurt Locker. I forget if you have read C J Cherryh's Cyteen? His character is maybe like a human-born version of Florian.

[oyceter]

Sweet! I will have to watch that some time...

[ide_cyan]

Jeremy Renner is great in pretty much everything. (And he's brilliant as Dahmer.)

He was also in an early episode of Angel, as a vampire!

[la_vie_noire]

THESE ARE MY FEELINGS! O. M. G.

[oyceter]

\o/

I just... BLACK WIDOW!