AKICOLJ

[oyceter]

Would anyone who watches a lot of Bollywood movies be willing to watch this and tell me how the dancing is? (possible spoilers for So You Think You Can Dance Top 12)

I am really really happy about more cultures being represented on the show (Chinese folk dancing pleeeaaaseeeee?), but I haven't watched enough Bollywood dancing myself to be able to tell about technique and etc., and I'm pretty sure the judges haven't either. Also, I think a lot of the praise from the judges is coming from just having a Bollywood dance on the show; I remember when a couple did lindy hop last year, the judges so did not pick up on a lot of the little technique problems that they would have for a more familiar genre like ballroom.

(Also, while I like Katee and cheer for her, my reaction was also, "What, how can you not know what Bollywood is?!")

Also also, while I am here, commentary on the African jazz piece very welcome!

Comments

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

I think Katee and Joshua did a great job. There were times when they nailed the movements. I'd like to see them do a better job of emoting and acting the flirtacious aspects of the dancing. But, they may not have had the translating. But really, I think they nailed it.

Nigel, otoh, doesn't know much about Bollywood. It's been biting off of hiphop since Thriller (at least).

[oyceter]

Yay! I really wanted them to, because they're my favorite couple right now, but just could not tell from my limited knowledge! Though I think you are right and the emotion didn't quite get through, probably because the two were concentrating on the technique.

I hope this is successful enough that they get the choreographer as a regular.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

I adore them (as Katee is beauty when she dances) and after seeing little bits of Joshua learning the moves to this number, I don't believe that he hasn't put serious time in at various studios. He's a rat. He can't possibly be untrained. That man was falling back on some basics as he was breaking down various moves. (Love it).

I would have loved to have seen Chelsea and Mark do the number, because while they may not have nailed all the steps (I don't know how strong Chelsea is, and sometimes Mark's footing slips) they would have sold the story and the characters hard.

I rewatched the bits of the 'African' jazz number I could stand to watch.
Aside from my annoyance with the equation of 'African' with 'easy', 'raw', and 'earthy', I think Comfort failed to dance it well and whether or not Chris is a good dancer doesn't mean as much to me, because I don't think he's performed well.

I think Comfort should spend lots of time in a studio and try out next year. She's gorgeous, and I want to see her with way more technique under her belt, and, with her shoulder sound.

[oyceter]

Katee is one of my absolute favorite dancers this year (along with Will and Mark), and ohhhh, now I have to watch again to see Joshua learning moves! I am really really really hoping he goes far, because I really want a hip-hop dancer to win. (Well, I am rooting even more for a winning b-girl, but maybe next year...)

I was so irritated with the commentary about the African jazz piece, and I really hope they'll try to bring in someone who specializes in African or Afro-Caribbean dance.

Does the show let dancers who were in the top 20 re-try out? That would be cool. Also, I am hoping the show opens doors for people, particularly the ones without formal training.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

That was really impressive! I'm happy to see the culture represented too, though I agree that the judges seemed to be overly excited about having the dance at all, to the exclusion of talking about execution much.

Based on my limited experience, I'd say that they did a lot of adaptation to get a similar feel to a big Bollywood dance number, since they only had two people. It seemed like Katee was acting largely as a sub for 100 backup dancers with the abrupt, "masculine" moves that fit with the section of music they used. I'd usually expect more of the veil business and slinkier moves from a leading woman. I'm not sure they really expressed the story they were going for. Normally there's a sort of dueling boy/girl alternation, where they flirt for a long time before doing anything in sync, so I didn't get any sense here of playing hard-to-get. I think the feel of a larger cast came across, but at the expense of the story.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

(Wow, the judges were cold to Comfort and Chris! I thought they did great, though the judges have a point that the intensity declined a bit during the number. Maybe it's my lack of dance knowledge that makes me a bit mystified as to how it's jazz.)

[oyceter]

I really liked that number too! Especially Comfort. And I keep wondering if she's being held back by aversive racism (via her partners or the judges or the voters, who knows), and I am irritated that she probably was voted off this week and that means no more black women. I am slightly mollified b/c Sabra won last year, but I still wish there were more women of color, esp. in the top ten.

[morgan-dhu.livejournal.com]

I was sad to see Comfort go, but at the same time, I'm not sure that she was keeping up as well as she could have - and I'm not sure why that might have been. At times she hasn't seemed to be as confident as she needs to be, and I think that's shown in her dancing.

Actually, I haven't really been overwhelmed by many of the women this year other than Katee. I'm not sure why none of the others have really stood out for me. Maybe it's because I've been so very overwhelmed by Will and Twitch...

[oyceter]

Yeah, both this year and last year I wasn't as overwhelmed by the women, though Katee and Sabra are made of win. I am so glad they didn't get rid of Katee in Vegas.

OMG Will is so awesome!!! I heart Twitch too, but I'm scared he won't make it long in the top ten if he gets a lot of ballroom routines. Though I think he is an audience favorite, so that will help. I love Mark too.

[cryptoxin.livejournal.com]

And I keep wondering if she's being held back by aversive racism (via her partners or the judges or the voters, who knows)

I really like Comfort, but I'd been disappointed by a lot of her performances.

I watched season 3 of SYTYCD for the first time this year, and tried to keep track of the proportion of people of color at each stage of the competition, to see if they were eliminated at a higher rate than white contestants. What I found was that at every stage, about 30-35% of the dancers (plus or minus 5%) were people of color, suggesting that they weren't more likely to get cut. And then of course, there were two people of color in the final four, and (awesomely!) Sabra won with Danny as runner up.

This year, things seemed to follow a similar pattern for the first half of the season, though the percentage of people of color was a bit higher on average -- maybe 35-40%. I don't know if you've seen this week's episodes yet, so I won't say more now -- but things have gotten really interesting now that we're down to the top 8!

Of course, the show still has a fair amount of racial issues. Especially around stereotypes & fetishization of dance styles associated with blacks -- i.e. the recurring drama of whether white dancers can be sufficiently 'gangsta' when dancing hip hop, or the whole 'animalistic'/primitive stuff viz. African jazz routines -- and the pseudo-affirmative action narratives around 'street dancers' and b-boys/b-girls. Plus there's the preponderance of white judges and choreographers.

As a counterpoint, I've also been watching America's Best Dance Crew on MTV (the episodes are all online, though I don't know if they're accessible from outside the U.S.), where the majority of crew members and two out of the three judges are people of color (the crews come up with their own choreography). The first season, which aired earlier this year, was amazing; the crews in the current season don't seem as strong or memorable, but it's still enjoyable with some really impressive dancing.

[oyceter]

Oh, thanks for the numbers! I mean, I critique the show, but one of the reasons why I watch (besides being a total dance geek!) is because it's so much easier seeing non-stereotyped POC on SYTYCD than it is on most network tv shows! So sad, and yet...

Word to the fetishization of dance styles associated with black people! I get so sick of all the commentary on how "aggressive" and "scary" hip hop is and all the "gangsta" commentary and the "animalistic/primitive" comments you mention re: the African jazz routines. And I HATE the "Oh, you clean up so nicely" comments so much!

I really wish they hadn't made Mary Murphy a permanent judge, because then that'd leave two guest spots open for more judges of color. Of course, if Nigel weren't a white man, this would be even less of an issue!

ZOMG America's Best Dance Crew! I only caught the tail end of last season, but it was awesome! It's why Shane Sparks hasn't been on SYTYCD as much, right? At least, that's my guess. And I love so much that white people on that show are the exception, not the norm! I need to catch up with the current season when I get back.

[oyceter]

Ohhhh, that makes much more sense! I think I've seen only a handful of Bollywood routines, and some parts just did not look like the guy/girl bits, so I was confused. But yes, it makes sense as a chorus.

[flamika.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen any other Bollywood pieces, but I did love watching them do that dance. I was getting tired of the usual genres they have on the show and wanted to see some world dance. (Although, as a user above commented, watching it again makes me realize that they didn't quite get the story across.) I'm still hoping that someone will choreograph another Cuban Rumba this year; I loved seeing the combination of African and Latin dancing.

[oyceter]

I know! I want more world dance! (Also more lindy hop, but that's because I actually know that one!)

[flamika.livejournal.com]

Hee. I don't know anything about Lindy Hop, but I did enjoy Neil and Lacey's last season. I felt so bad for Neil, though, because he seemed like he was smiling through his exhaustion. (He was my favorite dancer.) I'm glad that he and Lacey worked better together in that dance than they did in the Latin Jazz, which I thought would have been great if they'd had more chemistry.

[oyceter]

It was fun (and I took a class with the choreographer at a swing camp!!!), though I think like a lot of the SYTYCD routines, it was trick-heavy, so sometimes the basics were ignored. Ex., both Neil and Lacey should have been much deeper into the floor with bendier knees. But I am impressed by the aerials! (Though I think whoever decided on their costumes should have been shot.)

[morgan-dhu.livejournal.com]

I was so happy to see them doing a Bollywood-style dance. I only know what I see in the movies, so I can't really say how good the technique was, but it seemed to be pretty good. Although as others have said, I thought it was more of a chorus dance with just two people than a romantic dance between two leads.

I really do hope that they can continue to work with that choreographer, or other choreographers out of Bollywood. Wouldn't it be great to see every couple doing one Bollywood number over the course of the competition?

[oyceter]

Wouldn't it be great to see every couple doing one Bollywood number over the course of the competition

YESSSS! Although it would also be made of AWESOME if they brought in Indian classical dance choreographers too! I've only seen a little (my college roommate danced), but I liked what I saw.

[morgan-dhu.livejournal.com]

I would so love to see more authentic world dance choreographed by people from and trained in the traditions. Indian, Pacific Islander, Chinese, African, North American aboriginal... there are so many different dance traditions from each of these cultures.

I have been a little bit, well, unsure about some of the African-influenced dances they've done. The dancing itself has been great, and I think the choreographer(s) involved have been respectful, but... why are the dancers always, it seems, dressed as Hollywood "savages"?

Mind you, I struggle with cultural appropriation issues all the time, because I'm a white person who is drawn to a great many cultural, artistic, philosophical and spiritual traditions from other cultures, many of which have been colonised, oppressed and exoticised by the West. I can only hope I'm being respectful, not appropriative. But it makes me perhaps hypersensitive when I see representations of other cultures in Western media.

[oyceter]

*nods* I am glad to see more African-influenced dances on the show, but arrrrrrrgh the commentary drives me crazy! Ditto with the commentary on a lot of the hip-hop pieces ("it's not aggressive like so much hip hop! It's actually sweet!" @@).

I ... am still struggling with how to differentiate between comments about animal-style dances, because the little I do know about African-based dance brought over to the US is that there were a lot of "animal" dances (turkey dance, off the top of my head) and that one of the characteristics of African influence in dances like Lindy is an angled body (as opposed to upright, like ballroom) and bent knees. Still, I don't think that means people can say the dances and/or dancers are "animalistic" or "savage" or "primitive," as that's a very different connotation!

Sigh. I really wish that they would bring in someone who specializes in African dance, as that would make me feel a bit better...

[morgan-dhu.livejournal.com]

Re: dance that is based on animal movement

It just struck me that while Western culture represents dance from African traditions that draws on animal movement as "savage" and "animalistic," movement in the martial arts - primarily from Asian traditions - which also draws on animal movement is not characterised that way. Even though movement that is both a fighting style as well as (often) a meditative art has potentials for violence that dance doesn't. Because white Western culture has a different set of stereotypes for describing Asian culture.

I haven't seen enough Western comment on/representation of the fighting styles developed in Central and South America from a fusion of African and American Aboriginal traditions to know if they are more likely to be characterised as savage, primitive or animalistic.

But it wouldn't surprise me if they were.

[layla-aaron.livejournal.com]

kintail sent me over because I am a Bollywood freak. =) (I was a bit surprised Katee didn't know what Bollywood is; however, many people don't. I have to refrain from slapping those who don't know what it is, because I'd be slapping half the population of this city. *g*)

I watched this number a couple of times, and overall, I think they did a decent job capturing the essence of the dance style. Capturing it as a duo without all the backup dancers is difficult. jinian hit the nail on the head about the masculinity of many of the moves, as well as the need for more flirtation on Katee's part.

Because I enjoy spreading my love of Bollywood, I went digging in YouTube to find a few numbers to share. =D

Short clip of ‘Dhoom Tanaa’ (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dwwRe8K804Y&locale=en_GB&persist_locale=1) - the song Katee and Joshua used

Full clip of ‘Dhoom Tanaa’ (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gXPoZBMydAU&feature=related) - the flirtation and playing hard to get is more obvious here, and the moves they dance together are less masculine.

’Kangna Re’ (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F_nbdEL6os8) - From the film Paheli, it’s a good example of the synchronicity of a large chorus of dancers. It also shows the flirtatiousness of the women dancers.

’Lagaa Re Jal Lagaa’ (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DeiYZ0kzn-o) - Also from Paheli, this number highlights a dancer spinning on their knees as was mentioned on the clip. I was impressed by Joshua and Katee with this move. It’s not easy and they did very well.

’Nimbooda’ (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2bfGdHkOLJI) - Last but not least, from Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam, shows how the masculine and feminine moves can be used to play off one another and contrast. I would love have seen them use this as the music, to have taken some of the steps from this number.

Sorry this was so long-winded but I hope it helps some. Overall, I think they did well for dancers not immersed in the dance style, especially for one dancer not knowing what Bollywood is. I doubt the judges have a very discerning eye when it comes to Bollywood. Still, it's nice to see them bring some world dance to the competition. And I would thoroughly enjoy seeing Chinese and Thai folk dancing.

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

Thirding the opinion that the choreography was almost hyper-masculine -- and acrobatic -- in execution. That fits more comfortably with Western standards of dance technique, though, so it's nothing that surprised me (yes, I ran to YouTube the moment I heard there was a Bollywood piece, because I am easy like that). And I thought they did exceptionally well with the routine they were given -- they kept the movement fluid and contained, which this kind of dancing (classically-inspired*) depends on, and Katee especially was holding her own on the hand gestures (mudra). And she didn't even know what Bollywood was, before!


*Most Bollywood routines are inspired by Indian classical dance to some degree, combining different schools or mixing them with modern dances with a cheerful disregard for "purity" of style. That's one of the reasons this routine made me happy -- saying something is Bollywood-style is like... well, it's hard to think of a Western equivalent, but you could draw a whole mess of different stuff from that label. The choreographer was obviously attempting to keep the movement grounded in Indian style, albeit tailored for newbie dancers and a Western audiences, while preserving the exuberance that characterizes Bollywood.

If you're looking for maybe an authentic Bollywood "equivalent" of this routine, try this:



It's two (female) dancers playing off of each other (each classically trained), using some of the same moves in the SYTYCD routine. The moves are executed differently, but are recognizable. It also brings home the "backed by 300 awesome dancers" aesthetic.

I bring it up not just because I like (love) this number, but it's some of the most athletic dancing I've seen women perform in a Bollywood film that is drawing heavily from the classical schools. As you can see, usually women's costumes outright prohibit the kind of movement in the SYTYCD routine. (Except the Odissi dance costume. But that's... me getting wildly off topic.) And the SYTYCD costumes were pure Hollywood. Even an item girl would wear a freakin' choli, not whatever bra thingy they had Katee in.


Chinese folk dancing pleeeaaaseeeee?

That would be so awesome, I would faint. And have to start watching the show regularly.

Was that African jazz? (I am just tickled they used a Manson song). It looks like regular jazz. But I am easily confused.

[estara.livejournal.com]

That's one incredible dance. I so wish Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly had been able to gather from these influences. I want more musicals in general. Ah well.

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

It's an incredible movie. glvalentine has a magnificent write-up about it, subtitled Madhuri Dixi Is Not Human. (Dixit being the shorter of the two main dancers in the clip above, and a freaking Bollywood legend as a dancer.)


I so wish Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly had been able to gather from these influences.

Huh! ... I wonder, would it have looked a little like this?



But I guess that's more Frankie Valens/beach bunny-movie/early '60s-influenced style. But while Fred and Ginger may not have bought into the Bollywood aesthetic, I'm sure Indian films were drawing influences from them. If you want to ask filmi_girl for some recs -- she's much more versed in pre-'80s Bollywood than I am -- you can tell her I sent you.

[estara.livejournal.com]

Heee, that looked even more like a 50ies inspired bit, considering the Tutti Frutti sample in there. It does remind me of those comedy dance skits which were often part of the musicals as well.

But you're right in that I believe the heyday of musicals were the 30s and 40s. Thanks for the tips and recommendation!

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

I can't say much about technique, not really being a dancer myself, but I did miss the thousands of back-up dancers, and it was a bit odd that they were doing exactly the same moves? Her dancing was definitely too masculine for a Bollywood heroine, and they fell down on the emoting bit as well.

Here's Madhuri without a million back-up dancers:

[oyceter]

Wow, that clip's fantastic! Also, I see what you mean re; the outfits; the cloth looks so heavy. Must watch more Bollywood movies when I get back!

I think that was African jazz? Though honestly, I have no idea and am just going by what the choreographer says. Also, I am not quite sure what exactly constitutes African jazz, as I sort of know about African influences in dance, thanks to obsessively reading up on Lindy hop, but I haven't ever seen various African and African-influenced American dances (i.e. cakewalk).

[deepad]

The dancing was good, even though the classical Indian dancer purist in me is cringing at some of the misrepresentation of hand gesture names etc.

I have to do some introspection about what degree of snobbishness is causing me to balk a little at the classification of Bollywood dance as an 'Indian cultural style'.

But they definately performed it with a lot more athleticism and strength then real Bollywood actors, because none of the stars are that fit or trained. :)

[oyceter]

Yeah, I was annoyed by the names of the hand gestures as well! And thanks for the input, and now I want to look up stuff on Indian classical dance (as in, actual classical dance, not Bollywood ^_~).