More Not-So Spontaneous Programming!

[oyceter]

Because I desperately want to babble about shoujo manga to people:

Shoujo Bodies

Most bodies in shoujo manga are thin and wispy, with an emphasis on androgyny. Many of the men tend to lack muscle definition (think Yuu Watase), while the women are much less curvy than their shounen manga counterparts. What does this mean to us? What other body types are there in shoujo manga? We will hopefully talk about gender-bending, cross-dressing, body image, and the fashion industry. Suggested series to discuss: After School Nightmare, Paradise Kiss, Walkin' Butterfly, Angel Sanctuary, Fruits Basket, W Juliet, Rose of Versailles, and Princess Knight.

Time and place should be decided on Thursday at Wiscon; keep an eye out on the spontaneous programming board.

Comments

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

Cooool. Will watch for it.

[oyceter]

Yaaay!

[keelieinblack.livejournal.com]

I am gnashing my teeth and praying fervently that someone takes good notes for a report of this one!

[oyceter]

I will definitely try to take notes if the panel ends up being successful and not me and Mely flailing at each other.

[re-weird.livejournal.com]

Same here! It sounds great. Someday, Wiscon, I'll actually go to you.

One series I found that has very good depictions of actual human bodies is Victorian Romance Emma, the nude scenes in particular.

[oyceter]

Oh! Emma! Technically seinen and not shoujo, but it'll be interesting to branch off to how bodies are in other subgenres.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

Really, Emma is seinen? How does it get decided, what genre a manga series is? Is it simply the Japanese magazine in which it made its original run?

[oyceter]

Yeah, I know! I was really surprised when I learned too. Apparently Honey and Clover is seinen as well. I think people mostly tell by the Japanese magazine... when I'm not sure, I check what Wiki says, heh. But it did explain the boxier panels of Emma, which aren't very shoujo.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

Dude, I thought Honey & Clover was josei - in fact, I think it's used as a "classic" example on the Wikipedia page describing josei, as is NANA. Maybe we should find out what they are for sure, and edit Wikipedia ourselves!

[oyceter]

Wah! I'm so confused now! Well, the magazine looks like a josei one, so josei!

... I swear, I saw it under seinen sometime somewhere....

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

I third this.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

I hadn't noticed that about the men in Yuu Watase's manga, although now that you mean it, it does make sense. It's interesting, because I had definitely remembered her series for actually portraying girls with curves.

This sounds like an interesting panel! I hope that I can make it!

[oyceter]

I really hope you can make it too! Hey, are you going to be there on Thurs? Right now I'm just scheduling around my schedule and Mely's, since that is who I am sure will come, but if you're there, let me know! I will try to not put it against stuff you want to go to!

Also, ooh, good point about Watase having more girls with curves!

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

I actually live in Madison right now, so I'll definitely be around on Thursday.

[oyceter]

Yaaay! I make grabby hands at you and littlebutfierce and make you promise to eat with me.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

When I was at Worldcon Yokohama, attempting to have a conversation with a Japanese fan in broken Japanese and English, I took out Spindrift to show her.

She pounced, exclaiming "muscles!" in a tone of great glee. Then she stroked the muscles, clutched the manga to her bosom, and asked, "How much?"

I hadn't actually meant it to be for sale, but I sold it to her. And decided that perhaps there was an untapped market for boys' love with muscles.

[oyceter]

There has got to be, given Minekura's popularity... right? Or maybe Minekura is a niche, but still.

[octopedingenue]

I have definitely seen muscle-bound manga bishonen on websites aimed at Japanese gay men; I've no idea what kind of crossover that artstyle has with women and shoujo readers.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've seen some scans of gei-comi where the whole hairy-muscularity thing would make some Tom of Finland characters look almost dainty in comparison...

[greenapple2004.livejournal.com]

For a more abstract conversation, who has control of their bodies, and what level of control would be interesting, too. (and probably how gender-bending/gender roles play into that...)

[oyceter]

Definitely that, though hopefully with a link to the physical, just so the topic doesn't get to broad.

Ito from W Juliet is my bishonen girlfriend.

[octopedingenue]

Love*Com is a good popular romcom sibling to Walkin' Butterfly: very tall girl and very short boy fall in snark and wuv (with bonus transgender supporting character). At 6' tall, I love both series dearly.

Also interesting: in shoujo & shonen, women (though sexually assaulted more) get physically mutilated less than men; it's usually the boys losing an eye or a random arm.

I am so envious of WisCon goers!! Have fun and please report in exhaustive detail. :D

Re: Ito from W Juliet is my bishonen girlfriend.

[oyceter]

Oh cool! I've seen that in bookstores but wasn't sure if it was good or not.

YES to lack of emo scarring/limb loss/eye loss!

Re: Ito from W Juliet is my bishonen girlfriend.

[octopedingenue]

It is great! It is snarky and sweet and randomly meta and beautifully drawn, and so makes me want an Otani-boyfriend of my own to keep in my pocket very happy. Have a taste!

SERIOUSLY (and not a phenomena unique to Japanese action stories)! Manji, Hakkai, Edward Elric Various CLAMP Bishonen, etc. do not look any less hot sans eyeballs and/or limbs. So WTF is up with the logic of "sexually traumatize the ladies all you want but don't touch the pretty pretty faces!" Like, practically the only ones I can think of offhand are in shonen!Bleach and shonen!Claymore and stuff.

Re: Ito from W Juliet is my bishonen girlfriend.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

I loved Lovely Complex! At least, I loved the anime when it wasn't being filler-y.

That is a really cute icon.

Re: Ito from W Juliet is my bishonen girlfriend.

[octopedingenue]

Isn't the series aaaghsocute?! I've not finished the anime yet, but I know it meanders away from the manga storyline by the end since the manga kept going. Overall I prefer the manga, though I haven't finished it either since once I do I will be made of WOE. But I do love the anime for the SOCUTE and the Kansai accents, and the crack that gets crackier in animation. "Risa!! SHOVE OUT YOUR TITS OF LOVE!!" And the Most Awkwardly Adorable First Kiss Evah!

Thank you! I made it 'cause my other book icons weren't SQUEEful enough. :D

Re: Ito from W Juliet is my bishonen girlfriend.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

YES, I love their Awkwardly Adorableness. And yes! I too LOVE listening to their Kansai accents!!

ALSO also, I love the opening songs. It doesn't hurt that they're sung by a 5-member boy band. Have you seen their music videos? They're hilariously Backstreet Boys-esque.

Also.....UMIBOZU!

I should really check out the manga.

I always read "UMIBOZU!!" caroled in 2-part Hanshin-Kyojin harmony.

[octopedingenue]

Sometimes I want to smoosh them together and then dance around them in a circle, pointing and cackling. WITH LOVE! And yes! "AHO!" is infinitely more hilarious than "BAKA!"

I too love the opening songs! The first OP wins for being all "you're kind of cute, I guess?" but I favor the second OP because it has FIREWORKS and RANDOM POWER RANGER ACTION! I have NOT seen the Japanese boy band videos in question. ELABORATE PLZ.

Yessssss read the manga! Even the Viz version is pretty good and has nice translations notes. Have you seen the live-action movie to know if it's any good? I have it downloaded somewhere but haven't watched it yet.

Re: I always read "UMIBOZU!!" caroled in 2-part Hanshin-Kyojin harmony.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

BWAHAHAHA!



Wow, I forgot that I have the ability to sing along with this song, despite not knowing how to speak Japanese. I guess it's not as bad as knowing the live-action Sailor Moon theme, :D


YES, I LOVE THE POWER RANGER PART, TOO! Also, everyone falling in the sky!

Re: I always read "UMIBOZU!!" caroled in 2-part Hanshin-Kyojin harmony.

[octopedingenue]

OH MY GOD THE FAKE SLOW-MO CANNOT STOP GIGGLING



The sky-falling reminds me of the KareKano anime! With less desire to throw things in frothy rage.

Re: I always read "UMIBOZU!!" caroled in 2-part Hanshin-Kyojin harmony.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

Also: No, I haven't seen the live action movie yet, but I would like to check it out!

Re: Ito from W Juliet is my bishonen girlfriend.

[oyceter]

You guys have convinced me to check it out! Yay!

[furikku.livejournal.com]

Damn you, Wiscon, for being in the north! I want to attend this panel!

I am v. tired of the wispy shojo people. I WANT FATTY ROMANCE, GUYS. (Also beefcake romance, but mainly just people who WILL NOT BLOW AWAY.)

[oyceter]

I know, seriously! And while I like how angry the heroine of Walkin' Butterfly is, it would be nice if she didn't learn to feel better about her body image... by becoming a model.