Common and hidden knowledge, addendum

[oyceter]

coffeeandink has got a round up of more. My current favorite takes on the meme are vassilissa's US-specific references non-USians are expected to know and littlebutfierce's ruminations on culture and immigration and the push to assimilate and the pull to remember your roots.

Anyway, here are some answers and explanations! (original post)

What year was the Republic of China founded?

1911. This seems like a rather random piece of knowledge, except I guarantee everyone in Taiwan will know this because the ROC calender starts from 1911. So on all forms, there's an entry for __ year of the Republic. 2007 would be 96.

How many revolutions did it take for Sun Yat-sen to succeed, and where did the second-to-last one take place?

11. The second-to-last one took place in Guangzhou, which is where the first one also took place.

I cheated a little; this is somewhat esoteric knowledge (like asking which battlefield was the last one of the Revolutionary War).

The last one succeeded on October 10, 1911 in Wuchang, and probably anyone in Taiwan can tell you the date, since it's a little like our Fourth of July or Bastille Day analogue.

I picked these two questions on the ROC because it's not just Taiwan history. Sun Yat-Sen is probably one of the few figures both Mainlanders and the Taiwanese respect, though given the current political climate in Taiwan, I'm not as sure about the latter anymore. The ROC was set up in China after the fall of the Qing Dynasty, but then the Nationalist Army (ROC) ended up fighting with the Communist Army around WWII, which is why many Chinese families (mine included) ended up emigrating to Taiwan at the time. This is also why I grew up on Communist horror stories and why my school actually had rules forbidding Communist propaganda (which we made fun of heartily, trust me).

I also picked these because it's the foundation of a lot of what's going on with the Taiwan and China situation right now, along with a lot of the political dissent in Taiwan (there's a lot of debate over changing the national name of Taiwan from "the ROC" to "Taiwan").

As delux_vivens notes, this isn't esoteric knowledge for esoteric knowledge's sake. China's threatened to bomb Taiwan several times that I can remember, and that's when I was living there. The city my family lives in is the one closest to China from across the strait. When I was in school, we mostly laughed off the missile threats, and I still doubt that they will ever carry through, but you never know.

Why should people in the US know or even care about this?

Because the US is the one who has been supplying Taiwan with arms and military good, and the US is the one who responds to threats (or doesn't) by moving aircraft carriers closer to the Taiwan Strait. I'm not even going to get into the debate of ethics over this or if the US should step in or not. But I wanted to point out that knowing these things about Taiwan is not an academic issue.

Some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen#From_exile_to_Wuchang_Uprising
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhai_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuchang_Uprising

What is an actual quote attributed to Confucius (I hate those "Confucius say" jokes SO MUCH)?

I am not kidding when I say I hate those "Confucius say" jokes. Way to take one of the most famous and influential philosophers in East Asia (Confucianism and reactions to Confucianism and neo-Confucianism affected China, Japan, and Korea) and denigrate him.

Again, I am fairly certain most people in middle school and up in China and Taiwan can cite something of his (we memorized them in class).

Have some quotes!

The one I remember most is "學而不思則罔，思而不學則殆" (trans: To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous), largely because this is the one I would always use to protest having to memorize all of the quotes and poetry that I did in CHinese class.

Name three Chinese poets, what dynasty they wrote in, and a poem they are famous for.

I think the English-speaking analogue for this would be to name three British OR American poets, what century they wrote in, and a poem they are famous for. I'm deliberately widening the scope to include British and American poets because of how long the Chinese poetic tradition is and because of how classical Chinese functioned a little like Latin in East Asia in the past (the reason why the first Japanese novel was written by a woman was because the men at the time were writing in classical Chinese).

My pesonal three:
Li Bai (Tang), known for his poem toasting the moon with his shadow and probably hated among kids in Chinese schools everywhere for Quiet Night, which almost everyone memorizes.
Du Fu (Tang), A Spring View
Bai Juyi (Tang), Song of the Guitar (I had to memorize the entire thing in eighth grade! It is long! I can amazingly still remember the first four lines!)

Generally if you name anyone famous, he's probably Tang Dynasty unless he's Su Shi (Song).

Others: Su Shi, Tao Yuanming, Li Qingzhao (courtesy of OSC and Xenocide, and I cheered for her), Wang Wei, Meng Haoran (who wrote A Spring Morning, which we used to make into a poem about mosquitoes)

Name three symbolic plants or flowers in Chinese culture and what they symbolize.

Plum blossoms - thriving in adversity (also the national flower of Taiwan!)
Bamboo - longevity or thriving in hardship or symbolizing a person who is noble and good and still humble
Peony (mu dan) - some of my teachers said the historical references to peonies aren't actually the peonies we see now. No clue. Symbolizes nobility.

Others: chrysanthemum (and referring back to the previous question, Tao Yuanming is known as the chrysanthemum poet), pine, water lily, probably a lot more

What was one of the capital cities of China prior to Beijing?

Luoyang, Xi'an/Chang'an, or many more

I was also tempted to ask what the difference was between the ROC and Taiwan (ha, depends on who you ask!), what are some things traditionally eaten during Chinese New Year (fish, long noodles, year cake, etc.), how popular is eating dog in China (because I am evil), who are the Han people (traditionally thought of as the "actual" Chinese), why is opium always described as "the Chinese vice" (also because I am evil), and probably more I can't think of.

Comments

[jiawen]

I forgot to mention -- have you seen the various culture tests on Mark Rosenfelder's Zompist.com?

I didn't know about the different revolutions in 1911. Thanks!

[marzipan-pig.livejournal.com]

Hah! That was great. The 'Germany' one about killed me ("WW2 was a disaster where the government went crazy", and the parts about just saying what you feel outright, plus the American conquerors bringing chewing gum!).

[oyceter]

Nooo, I haven't. I am vaguely grumpy they don't have a Taiwan one, because there are certain points in the China one that I strongly disagree with!

I think it wasn't so much different revolutions in 1911 so much as a series of revolutions spread out over ten years or so culminating in the 1911 one.

[jiawen]

If you want, you could always write Culture Tests for Taiwan and Chinese-ROC folks. Mark seems very open to criticism; I gave him some pointers on his English words from Chinese page and he took a lot of my advice. Or even just pointing out where the existing culture tests are wrong and asking him to correct them...?

Ah, okay, I knew about there being multiple revolutions. But I still don't know enough about the period -- I need to brush up on my post-fall of Qing/pre-1949 history more.

[jiawen]

Oh, and: I do plan to post about Taiwanese indie music soon, but haven't had the spare time yet.

[oyceter]

That would be awesome!

[oyceter]

Hee, I think I would feel too poser-y to actually write one!

[shati.livejournal.com]

omg Ye Si! I liked memorizing it. And that is an awesome poetry site -- I have longed for a hover function like that, and that's the first time I've come across one. *bookmarks lovingly*

I didn't have much chance to comment during the actual memeing of the memes, but reading them through afterwards is an education and a half. A very, very basic education and a half, but that's the worst kind to never get around to.

[oyceter]

Hee, I actually secretly liked memorizing all the poems as well. Even the immensely long Bai Juyi one! Plus, they rhyme, which make them ten bazillion times easier to memorize than other classical Chinese snippets.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

You *are* evil. *gives you cake*

I was going to respond to what you said about my post and then I found myself on an almighty tear about people who sneer at 'urban black culture' as represented by BET and rap music and manage not to know that BET isnt actually owned by any actual Black people and hasnt been in years. So I'll stop now and just say "excellent post."

also.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

i do want to point out that a lot of what i know about other poc and their cultures has been the result of places like SNR where we can have confabs (or at least meet) and share information that *doesnt* revolve around dominant culture needs to objectify and appropriate.

Re: also.

[oyceter]

*nods* Yes, definitely. I've learned a ton from just, er, lurking around your LJ and deadbro and just from going back for a few weeks posts on SNR.

Re: also.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

a lurker, on my lj? *is shocked*


besides, you know SNR is hegemonic mind control central.

[oyceter]

Mmmmmm cake.

Argh, yes, that would be annoying! Ditto with the "all rap is misogyny and violence!"

[bantha-fodder.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love that poetry site! I discovered it just last week, when I was writing an essay on Du Fu for my Chinese class, and now I love it! Just a shame it doesn't work properly in Safari. :o(

[oyceter]

I am always so happy to find Chinese poetry sites that have the original Chinese! Because the translations are nice, but it is so not the same. I always miss the rhythm and the rhyme and the insane amounts of parallelism.

[siljamus]

I'd like to thank you for the original post that set this all in motion.

In all my years on-line this is probably the first time I've ever experienced a respectful and informative discourse on cultural and ethnic differences, where everyone even seems to be having fun while learning something. It is all too rare given how important the subject matter is, so thank you for coming up with the framework and setting the tone through your own participation.

[oyceter]

Thanks for reading!

Xunzi > Mengzi

[snake-aes.livejournal.com]

I was going to make a crack about what good Confucius did Qing China, but that's really quite unfair. After all, it worked well enough for two thousand years. That's more than most other state philosophies can say.

So, I'll just quote him at you instead.

4.22 The Master said, "People in ancient times did not speak lightly, and were ashamed lest their actions not measure up to their words."

Also, hi.

Re: Xunzi > Mengzi

[oyceter]

Um, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at here.

Also, somehow I'm guessing Western imperialism and internal rebellion were more relevant to the fall of the Qing Dynasty than Confucian philosophy.

[snake-aes.livejournal.com]

I know. It was a joke about the education of Qing officials and in any case, I didn't make it.

[oyceter]

Ok... so color me a bit confused as to why you brought it up then?

[snake-aes.livejournal.com]

It seemed like good idea at the time. D:

[litalex.livejournal.com]

I'm more partial to Liu Yung, myself, even though he's considered to be quite vulgar. :)

[oyceter]

I don't think I have read him! Although I am guessing he was kept out of our textbooks...?

[litalex.livejournal.com]

He's one of the minor poets of the Song Dynasty (before Su Si, even), nowhere near the Four Greats, but he was immensely popular with the general public. I actually don't think he was kept out of textbooks, but probably just not elegant enough to say much about.

This (http://www.chinapage.com/poetry1/liuyong1.html), I think, is the most famous of his poems.

As to Confucius, how about「三人行，必有我師焉」? (Never liked him much, though, mainly because of his support for the benevolent dictator instead of something better. But I guess he was a product of his time, and that he even advocated for benevolence is radical enough.)

[oyceter]

Heh, I can't even remember if I had to memorize that one or not! Thanks to my sucky Chinese, I mostly did a ton of rote memorization of stuff, and very little has stuck =(.