Buffy 5x10 Into the Woods
Thu, May. 27th, 2004 12:44 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
oyceterWell. I liked it till the Xander speech...
The Xander speech really made me just want to go strangle something, heh.
The Buffy and Riley argument made me sniffly, mostly because I think I sound exactly like Buffy when I argue, in the sort of close myself off immediately, flip the argument around as much as possible way. That said, I also think she had very good points. So did Riley, and I liked how he kept trying not to put the blame on her. I don't know if they were doing this intentionally, but the Riley going off to be bitten by vamps thing is basically just like a husband going off and having an affair -- the arguments all sound the same, not getting the same thing from the wife, and yes, while I am very down on the cheating, I do also see how it can rise up from situations like that. Unfortunately for the episode, the previous bits of S5 weren't really able to convince me that it was Buffy's coldness that was off-putting, as opposed to Riley's own insecurities about himself. So the entire time Riley was going on about the hunger of the vamps, I was fully agreeing with Buffy when she asked, "So that's somehow my fault?!"
And it was going ok, and I wasn't even all that mad at Riley when he issued his ultimatum, because people do things like that when they get pissed off.
Then there was the Xander speech, which was all sorts of wrong. I find that either I really like Xander, or I really really detest him. This was definitely a detest Xander moment (sorry Xander fans!). And while I guess you can say that it was just Xander's POV, the way the end of the episode played out made it seem as though the writers were trying to hammer in that Xander was right! I completely disagreed when he said he could see the implosion coming from miles away -- yes, Buffy was more withdrawn lately, but she was withdrawn from the entire Scooby gang, and really, I think the situation of having your mother in the hospital with a potentially lethal brain tumor is more than an adequate excuse for emotional not-thereness. Also, I don't particularly remember any moment in which Buffy really pushed Riley away, or really did anything that she didn't do in S4. So no, I didn't think Buffy was just treating Riley as rebound guy, nor did I really think she was taking him for granted. I think that yes, her mom's situation made her not focus on Riley in that period, but again, really not blaming her for that. I also think it was particularly harsh of Xander to come down on her like that, and that Buffy was really right on the money with the Anya comparison.
I don't know. It just annoys me that just because Buffy was not gushy and cooey like she was over Angel in S2 that it automatically means she somehow didn't love Riley enough. Plus, I thought it was very set up in the previous episodes that a lot of the friction was because Riley was having a hard time dealing with the fact that he had to be strong and manly and that he wasn't necessarily the dominant male in the relationship. And then suddenly they flip it around and make it all about Buffy's emotional withdrawnness. Don't get it.
And then there was the coda with Xander and Anya which was all sorts of wrong with me. I like Anya, and I don't particularly like the way Xander talks to her (most of what we see on screen is Xander telling Anya not to do stuff, not to be tactless, etc.). So holding up Xander and Anya as the epitome of the loving caring relationship and juxtaposing that with the apparent wrongness of Buffy and Riley was not to my taste. At all. Because although Xander says he can see the cracks in Buffy and Riley's relationship, I as a viewer personally have more problems with the Xander and Anya relationship. And then Xander has this line in which he says that Anya makes him feel all manly, at which point I felt like hitting something.
So, no. Excise the last ten minutes or so and keep the ambiguousness of two people too stubborn to back down and talk with Buffy and Riley, and it would have played ok with me. But they had to stick in the whole Buffy is too cold and emotionally withdrawn! thing. Ugh.
The Xander speech really made me just want to go strangle something, heh.
The Buffy and Riley argument made me sniffly, mostly because I think I sound exactly like Buffy when I argue, in the sort of close myself off immediately, flip the argument around as much as possible way. That said, I also think she had very good points. So did Riley, and I liked how he kept trying not to put the blame on her. I don't know if they were doing this intentionally, but the Riley going off to be bitten by vamps thing is basically just like a husband going off and having an affair -- the arguments all sound the same, not getting the same thing from the wife, and yes, while I am very down on the cheating, I do also see how it can rise up from situations like that. Unfortunately for the episode, the previous bits of S5 weren't really able to convince me that it was Buffy's coldness that was off-putting, as opposed to Riley's own insecurities about himself. So the entire time Riley was going on about the hunger of the vamps, I was fully agreeing with Buffy when she asked, "So that's somehow my fault?!"
And it was going ok, and I wasn't even all that mad at Riley when he issued his ultimatum, because people do things like that when they get pissed off.
Then there was the Xander speech, which was all sorts of wrong. I find that either I really like Xander, or I really really detest him. This was definitely a detest Xander moment (sorry Xander fans!). And while I guess you can say that it was just Xander's POV, the way the end of the episode played out made it seem as though the writers were trying to hammer in that Xander was right! I completely disagreed when he said he could see the implosion coming from miles away -- yes, Buffy was more withdrawn lately, but she was withdrawn from the entire Scooby gang, and really, I think the situation of having your mother in the hospital with a potentially lethal brain tumor is more than an adequate excuse for emotional not-thereness. Also, I don't particularly remember any moment in which Buffy really pushed Riley away, or really did anything that she didn't do in S4. So no, I didn't think Buffy was just treating Riley as rebound guy, nor did I really think she was taking him for granted. I think that yes, her mom's situation made her not focus on Riley in that period, but again, really not blaming her for that. I also think it was particularly harsh of Xander to come down on her like that, and that Buffy was really right on the money with the Anya comparison.
I don't know. It just annoys me that just because Buffy was not gushy and cooey like she was over Angel in S2 that it automatically means she somehow didn't love Riley enough. Plus, I thought it was very set up in the previous episodes that a lot of the friction was because Riley was having a hard time dealing with the fact that he had to be strong and manly and that he wasn't necessarily the dominant male in the relationship. And then suddenly they flip it around and make it all about Buffy's emotional withdrawnness. Don't get it.
And then there was the coda with Xander and Anya which was all sorts of wrong with me. I like Anya, and I don't particularly like the way Xander talks to her (most of what we see on screen is Xander telling Anya not to do stuff, not to be tactless, etc.). So holding up Xander and Anya as the epitome of the loving caring relationship and juxtaposing that with the apparent wrongness of Buffy and Riley was not to my taste. At all. Because although Xander says he can see the cracks in Buffy and Riley's relationship, I as a viewer personally have more problems with the Xander and Anya relationship. And then Xander has this line in which he says that Anya makes him feel all manly, at which point I felt like hitting something.
So, no. Excise the last ten minutes or so and keep the ambiguousness of two people too stubborn to back down and talk with Buffy and Riley, and it would have played ok with me. But they had to stick in the whole Buffy is too cold and emotionally withdrawn! thing. Ugh.
(no subject)
Mon, May. 31st, 2004 02:41 pm (UTC)And while I guess you can say that it was just Xander's POV, the way the end of the episode played out made it seem as though the writers were trying to hammer in that Xander was right!
Like you, I was OK with the episode up until about the last ten minutes. Then came Xander's speech and it ruined the episode for me. At first I was just angry with Xander (and didn't Xnader's praise of Riley make it seem as if HE should be the one running after the chopper?) and his talk of Riley being The One. Huh? I thought it was apparent from Riley's first appearance that this was not going to be the long haul guy. Buffy longed for and needed to try a 'normal' relationship, but it was never going to work.
ME seemed to do a good job of setting up why. Buffy was not as open emotionally to Riley as he would have desired. We've seen Buffy's past. I neither blame her for being the way she is nor Riley for not being able to understand why. We also had Riley's insecurities at not being enough for her - a blow to his male pride. This was enough to break up the relationship, but throwing in the vamp whores seemed a way to give Buffy a concrete reason to end things. Yet, we get Xander's speech which, inexplicably, places the blame on Buffy. Sorry, but with all the other crap going on in her life I could understand her not being Ms There For Him.
Angel leaving was devastating, Parker was hurtful, but for those there was blame to spread around. This one, Xander made sure that she would just blame herself, despite the completely greyness of the situation.
Exactly. As others have already mentioned, there was a lot of selfishness in Xander's statements. He's the one that needed to see the relationship work. Not just because it reinforced his position in Buffy's life, it also gave him hope for he and Anya. But, for him to try to convince Buffy that she's wrong to end things with Riley and that she's the one who needs to change and take him back? No, that's wrong of him and ME for putting the words into his mouth. Maybe ascian is correct, maybe ME was feeding Buffy's self-doubt and insecurities in order to further what they had planned for her in season 6. In doing so, by having Buffy run after a man who betrayed her then gave her an ultimatum, it puts our heroine in a pathetic light.
(no subject)
Sun, Jun. 6th, 2004 02:38 am (UTC)