Buffy 5x04 Out of My Mind

[oyceter]

Buffy 5x04 Out of My Mind

The Riley liking hit a peak in The Replacement, with his little thing to Xander on how he adores Buffy and loves her so much, and then goes on to say that she doesn't love him back, all with the same smile on his face, like he was sad but sort of accepted it because it was worth it to be by her.

Then it took an abrupt dive during Out of My Mind. What is he thinking? Argh. And yeah, I can see it as being sort of like Willow's self-image issues, how he thinks he has to be all Superman (versus Willow's witch), because who would want to deal with normal Joe him? I would buy it except for the fact that previously they've played Riley as someone who admired Buffy for her strength and her Slayerness (with a few exceptions) -- he was really nice before about it and about not posturing, about being kind and not stupid macho army male for the majority of the eps. Obviously, some notable exceptions to this, but the niceness and the laidbackness was what I liked.

And now he's all like he just found out Buffy was the Slayer again. I think I would be more okay with the entire self-worth-tied-to-other-things issue ala Willow if they hadn't stuck the whole sort of gender role thing in! The whole you can't be fulfilled if your girlfriend is more powerful than you, and you should be macho and you belong in the army thing that Initiative Guy feeds him, along with the fear that Buffy won't love him if he's not physically strong. I mean, I understand the fear, I just don't like where it's going (and I know how the arc ends, which bodes ill...). Am frustrated. Was pleased before because of things like Buffy asking him in the Replacement: "Would you it better if..." and him saying "no" without even letting her finish the thought because he loved all of her. I like that Riley.

Plus, if I were Buffy and my boyfriend pulled some stupid health thing like that, I would go ballistic. Particularly after having a near scare with my mother fainting. Also, I mean, that's how Buffy shows she loves him, I feel.

Small giggly thing: opening power shot of Buffy crouched on a crypt... turns out the name on the crypt is "Law." Hee. Buffy is literally above the law ;).

Also, despite knowing the Spike dream is coming up, the revelation that Spike is in love/lust with Buffy feels strangely disjointed and unconvincing.

And I adore bratty Dawn. Haha, my sister isn't like that, but I totally sympathized with Buffy and her whole "I want to be protected and taken care of, why do I have to take care of her?" rant. I just really like the sister thing.

Comments

[jcalanthe]

You've summed up exactly how I feel about Riley I think. I was OK when Joss opened the door to guy having issues with stronger, more powerful girlfriend, cuz I thought, cool, this is a timely thing to talk about, cuz there's a bunch of guys who struggle with such a thing, and Joss is gonna take us thru the issue and show how it's possible for a guy like that to cope. But no, we never made it all the way thru, and I'm still disappointed in how that was handled. Thinking about it now, it reminds me some of how the fallout from Billy on Angel never got shown/dealt with - the guys do horrible, misogynist things, and it's never mentioned again after that ep.

[lakrids404.livejournal.com]

Yes but Riley was also fucked up mentally from the drugs he didn’t get anymore. He was a leftover from an amoral behaviour project, which had consequences for him that nobody could predict. If you have the time, should you check out the story Another Peaceful War
(http://s8219.net/BetterBuffyFic/Archive/ko/marinafrants-anotherpeacefulwar.txt /) , it is with Riley going home, in between season 4 and 5, or trying to.

[lakrids404.livejournal.com]

The main thing that I took notices in Billy, that all males got declared primeval misogynist?!!. And there are countless of other example where Buffy/Ats writer, have a very negative angle on males The Beauty and the Beast, compare the suspect, and in the end non-consequential patriarchal Watchers Council with matriarchal Guardians. I do like the shows, but somebody should tell Joss, that being a feminist is not about showing males as an amoral sub-species of humanity.

[oyceter]

*nods* I'm still hoping that Into the Woods isn't as headbashingly bad in terms of gender relations, but am not quite believing it, given all the comments on it I've read.

In general I adored Billy (creepy!!), but was sort of annoyed at the "primal misogyny" thing *rolls eyes*. Anyhow, I watched a little commentary on the DVDs, and I thought it was interesting because one of the writers (or Joss, I can't remember) says Billy is the main reason why Fred decides to go for Gunn instead of Wes -- which I think does have some pretty long-term consequences for the series and for Wes. But yeah, there's never any direct fallout.

[oyceter]

Yeah, it's true that the drugs had a great deal of influence over him, but I'm still rather annoyed that it manifested itself as anxiety over his manliness.

[oyceter]

Yeah, the primal misogyny thing is pretty dumb. But I would also have to argue that Joss' version of feminism can be rather reductive at times -- witness the current gender imbalance on Angel and Angel the show's tendency to treat its female characters as perfect things to be protected or admired (and Angel the character, now that I think about it).

[jcalanthe]

I actually think the Jossverse has all sorts of examples of men as not amoral, as well as alternate versions of masculinity. I appreciate that they do acknowledge that living in the current society affects men too - of course Wesley, having grown up surrounded by the patriarchal Watchers Council, struggles with sexism. But I wouldn't call Wesley or Giles or Xander or Riley or Doyle amoral. Even Spike and Angel, male vampires who are supposed to be amoral, aren't.

As to Billy in particular, yea, I'm not really excited about the message that all men are primally misogynist either. I could have forgiven the clumsiness of the premise more if there'd been more payoff.

surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Into the Woods .... ((cries))

I also really liked Riley's being OK with Buffy's Slayerdom (telling her not to hold back in fights, &c). Also, although I didn't much like the character, Marc Blucas sold "But she doesn't love me" so completely my estimation of him as an actor kicked up 110%. But speaking of gender dynamics I grew to loathe the B/R breakup arc because they flipped the "typical" scenario where the female wants to get emotionally closer and the male partner draws away and yet STILL tripped right into stereotype, because of course Buffy as a powerful (literally) woman can't be "feminine" and offer comfort and support at a time in her life when a lot is being asked of her.

Also, those breakup conversations were agonizingly realistic (a problem I would go on to have with all the emotional problems in S6). They were just hard to listen to, because at that point I liked both characters, but they were treating each other so badly....

Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">

[oyceter]

Good crying? Bad crying? Oh dear...

I adored early Riley and how he liked the fact that his girlfriend was kickass. And Blucas totally sold "But she doesn't love me" for me, and I loved how he was so matter-of-fact about it, and I sort of wish it had continued along that path, instead of him nursing resentment.

Into the Woods scheduled for watching tomorrow...

Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Good crying? Bad crying? Oh dear...

Welllll....even though I have every Buffy ep on DVD, I still watch the F/X reruns. Except that one. I'd rather watch "Amends" with Angel's Irish accent unmuted than that one. There is one nice scene about chicken feet, a good bit with Spike & Riley & a bottle, and Xander has a speech near the v end NB really sells, but that's Itsville for me.

I adored early Riley and how he liked the fact that his girlfriend was kickass. And Blucas totally sold "But she doesn't love me" for me, and I loved how he was so matter-of-fact about it, and I sort of wish it had continued along that path, instead of him nursing resentment.

Oooh, yeah -- he's not the standout in "Something Blue," but I always loved his reaction to EngagedBuffy ("Who?" "What?" "What's his name?" "Who?" "The groom." "Spike!" "That's a name?"). I also was interested in his relationship to Prof Walsh, whom I actually liked ("the name my TAs think I don't know about") until she turned into....well, wait, I don't know how much you've seen. But I always thought maybe his respect for her was part of the reason he was OK with Buffy's strength, too.

Into the Woods scheduled for watching tomorrow...

((gulp)) I'll be interested to see what you think of it!

There is one typical Whedon coinage that got round the censors and made me laugh, but it's a spoiler, so I won't say til after you've seen it.

Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">

[oyceter]

No fear for spoilers! I have now watched up to Into the Woods. Plus, I've seen all of latter S5, all of S6 and all of S7. So really, I have only not seen a few middle episodes of S5 now!

You know, I was of two minds about the episode, and I could see myself grudgingly respecting it, but then Xander opened his mouth and it all went kaput for me.

Sigh.

And I think I missed the Whedon coinage!!

Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Ohhhhhh yeah, there's two Xander speeches. There's the awful "He's never held back with you. He's risked everything. And you're about to let him fly because you don't like ultimatums?" speech which made me want to BREAK SMALL EXPENSIVE THINGS MADE OF CHINA. And then there was the "I'm in love with you. Powerfully, painfully in love. The things you do ... the way you think ... the way you move ... I get excited every time I'm about to see you. You make me feel like I've never felt before in my life. Like a man" speech, where I swooned. Never thought I would swoon over Nick Brendon, but swoon like a swooning thing I did.

I personally HATED this ep not just because of....well, many many things....but because this really cements Buffy's getting abandoned by men. Her father left, Angel left, Parker treated her like dirt, now there goes Riley, Giles is soon to follow....I liked the way Riley started out as too-wholesome-to-be-true (although the television depiction of everyone from Iowa as blandly wholesome is so annoying) and then turned into a typical Sunnydale character with a well-shaded dark side, but the Buffy/Riley relationship collapse just made me wince. Like "Why am I sitting here watching this on television when I have had this argument personally with someone I know?"

The one part of the ep I did like was the coinage of "suck job," as in Spike's "You're not the long haul guy....Or else you wouldn't be getting suck jobs from two-bit vampire trulls." I thought that was a v witty way to get around "blow job," which the network surely wouldn't permit, while being accurate re vampire/human as well.

Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">

[oyceter]

Haha, I was so annoyed with Xander that when he got to his second speech, all I could do was roll my eyes. Particularly at the "Like a man" part, which just disturbed, given that the entire episode was basically about feeling manly and being manly and how apparently one cannot be manly unless one is strong and has the power in the relationship. And that, of course, only the man can be manly. Grrrrr.

I actually liked the collapse because it was like me -- it's why I think S6 resonated so much with me. I liked Buffy before, but I suddenly understood the characters in a way I didn't before when they were in angst and pain.

I totally missed "suck job"! That's awesome ^_^.

Re: surfed on over from <lj user="mutant_allies">

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

given that the entire episode was basically about feeling manly and being manly and how apparently one cannot be manly unless one is strong and has the power in the relationship. And that, of course, only the man can be manly

Heh. Who wrote that one again? Marti Noxon! Why am I not surprised? Damnit, Marti, keep your gender issues off my characters!

it's why I think S6 resonated so much with me. I liked Buffy before, but I suddenly understood the characters in a way I didn't before when they were in angst and pain

It hit just a little too close to home for me -- I was like "Aaaagh, ohhh, oh poor girl, oh someone get her an icecream sundae with Prozac sprinkled on top, can't she just go for two weeks to Aruba?"

I totally missed "suck job"! That's awesome ^_^.

Doesn't that rock? You know, I bet Joss came up with that an inserted it -- that's really got his stamp.