Language notes for Saiyuki Gaiden

[oyceter]

I wish I had language notes for Saiyuki and Saiyuki Reload, but I don't have copies of the original manga or raws.

So, completely random things I noticed:

Formality Levels

Goku, Konzen and Kenren all term themselves as "ore" and use "omae" as the second-person pronoun. This wasn't a surprise for Konzen and Kenren, but it does sound a little funny having wee 8-year-old looking Goku using "ore." Ditto with Nataku. Ditto with Kanzeon, which totally cracks me up.

Tenpou uses "boku" and "anata." I don't know if Hakkai does or not, but I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Kenren and Konzen and Goku all use very informal Japanese, Kenren in particular. He changes all the "~nai" sounds to "~nee," which I think is rougher and more casual. Konzen does a little as well. Minekura also indicates this visually by occasionally writing out the longer vowels with dashes. Ex. "Sou jya neeeeee yo" (That's not so) becomes "So~~~~~ jya ne~~~~~ yo!" For more emphasis, occasionally particles are written out in katakana instead of hiragana. This is a pretty common thing in manga, not just a Minekura thing.

Tenpou ends everything properly and with formal conjugations, instead of using casual form. Ex. he conjugates the verb "iku" (to go") as "ikimasu yo!" (Let's go!) instead of saying something like "iku zo!" (more masculine)

Actually, everyone is fairly informal except for Tenpou, which I think is rather funny. It makes sense in terms of their Saiyuki reincarnations, except in this one, Konzen is the non-militant, albeit extremely grumpy, one.

I absolutely adore the language in the first meeting between Tenpou and Kenren in vol. 2. Kenren's very polite at first when he knocks on the door, but when no one answers, he sort of barges in, only to be barraged by Tenpou's Pile o' Junk. The first snatches of conversation with Tenpou are still fairly polite; I think Kenren thinks he's an aide or something. Kenren asks very nicely if Tenpou Gensui is around, and Tenpou answers that it's him.

Kenren stares, bug-eyed, and then laughs, saying very casually, "Oh man, you almost had me there!" (or words to that effect), at which point Tenpou laughs and says, "Me too!"

They stare again. Kenren realizes Tenpou isn't kidding and quickly kneels and introduces himself in incredibly polite Japanese and asks Tenpou to forgive him. It's all full of "moushiwake arimasen" and "sashi agemasu" and whatnot, which are phrases that you definitely use with a superior.

And Tenpou continues on normally and can't find his hankou, and Kenren starts talking like Kenren again.

Hrm. Doesn't sound quite so fun here, but I was so totally amused by Kenren being ultra, super polite.

Names and Kanji

Konzen Douji - "Kon" means "gold," "zen" means "cicada," "douji" means "child," though I suspect it could very well be some archaic Chinese rank or something. rachelmanija remarked that the gold fits because of Konzen's hair and the sun/light imagery consistently associated with him. I, of course, am amused by the cicada bit, though I have no idea what that's supposed to signify. Summer? The sound of cicadas are always used to signify summer, and that would go with the sun thing. Also, I snerk because the "zen" for cicada is very close to the "zen" for Zen Buddhism, except the "god" radical has been changed to a "bug" radical.

Kenren - not going into Taishou, as that's just a rank. "Ken" means "to curl or roll" and "ren" is "curtains" or something like that. I have no speculation, except the "ken" just seems to fit because the radical is a hand and it feels very action-y. Of course, I may just be saying this...

Tenpou - "Ten" means "heaven or sky," it's the same ten as in tenkai (Heaven/World above/etc.), "pou" is a kind of plant that for some reason I associate with a waterlily. I think it's because you can say "lien pong," the first lien being lily and pong being pou being... some additional plant thing stuck on to make it a phrase. Again, I liked this for Tenpou just because it feels more in the air, more removed from the physical.

And then there's Goku, whom Konzen names. I think he originally says he'd just name Goku "Saru" (monkey), but when Goku protests, he decides on "Goku" (technically Gokuu) because it's a short name that even a monkey brain can hang on to. I think he says the "go" is the kanji for "satoru," or "to realize" and the "kuu" means "space, or something to be filled." Alas, I cannot look up the exact thing Konzen says =(.

ETA: Ok, found it. It's not really Konzen saying anything, just sort of free-floating text reading: "Kuu" -- "something that can't be seen with the eyes. Something that can reach 'enlightenment' (satoru, the verb formed from the kanji for "go")." As rachelmanija says below, very Zen, which isn't surprising, given that it's the name given to Monkey by the guy who teaches him to change shapes and surf on clouds. In the book, "go" was the set generational given name beginning kanji for the teacher's students, and I think the teacher picked "empty" ("kuu") because of its very Buddhist connotations. Also, the "go" for "Goku" is the same as the one for "Gojyo" and "Gonou."

Everyone also has ostensibly Chinese names; Konzen, Kenren and Tenpou don't have surnames, but their given names consist of two kanji. Li Touten has a pretty Chinese-looking name; "Li" is just a common surname and I sadly can't remember what "Touten" is.

Assorted Notes

I have no idea how the translations refer to Heaven and Earth; in the manga, Heaven is "tenkai" and Earth is "gekai." The "kai" in both refers to world. The "ten" for Heaven is fairly normal; it usually means "heaven" or "sky." I don't think "tenkai" is the standard term for Heaven in the religious sense, but it definitely works here, given that Heaven is a world in itself and functions as such. I like "gekai" just because "ge" means "down or below;" it's literally the world below. So I keep futzing up because I'm not sure if I should just call it Earth, or Down Below, or what. I also keep associating it with hell because of the down bit, but that may just be me.

ETA2: more translation notes below in comments

Comments

[rilina.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this info! It's always nice to have some sense of what we're missing in translation.

[oyceter]

Glad it's helpful!

[jinian.livejournal.com]

the "god" radical has been changed to a "bug" radical

Okay, my day is now worthwhile.

[oyceter]

Again, I don't know if Minekura was actually thinking about this while creating the names (or even if she created the names or got them elsewhere). But Konzen as the golden cicada totally cracks me up.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

The "zen" for cicada is very close to the "zen" for Zen Buddhism, except the "god" radical has been changed to a "bug" radical.

That's definitely my favorite sentence of the day.

The other symbolism of the cicada, though I don't know if that's what it symbolizes in Japan, is that it goes into suspended animation for years (supposedly seventeen) and then crawls out to greet the summer. This symbolizes reincarnation or new life or, you know, generally the same as phoenix symbolism only the "fire" radical has been changed into a "bug" radical.

"go" is the kanji for "satoru," or "to realize"

Is this the same as "satori," or enlightenment? "Satori" plus "empty space," with all its associations of Buddhist monks pouring tea into a cup until it overflows to show that you cannot learn more until your mind has been emptied, makes Goku's name much more Zen than Konzen's. Which ties into one of the stories I will be writing later. ;)

Finally, I remember that Hakkai uses "boku" in the anime, and I think that comes from the manga. More polite than "ore."

[oyceter]

It's totally the same as "satori"! "Satori" is simply the noun form of "satoru."

And ooo, now that I'm home, I shall double-check my Gaiden books and post an ETA.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

See what "Goujun" and "Nataku" mean too, please.

[oyceter]

"Nataku" actually doesn't mean anything; I'm not sure where the name came from, because the characters are the same in the Chinese version as well ("Nezha"), but you can tell by the mouth radical on both the characters that it's probably something created just to sound like another name. I don't know... maybe he's from some other mythology and transported to Chinese mythology?

The original Nataku (from what I remember... it's been a while since I read these) was the War Prince of Heaven. He fought with these rings of fire and almost always wore this small diamond of cloth that tied around the neck and the back (traditional Chinese underwear type thing).

Also, "toushin taishi" is basically "prince war god" (tou=fight, shin=god, taishi=prince)

Goujun --> "gou"=er.... not quite sure, but my dictionary says "leisurely" and "jun" is wet or moistened or something. Because he's the Dragon King of the Western Seas! ;)

'...more about dragons than I wanted to know'

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Note of course that all Gaiden names come from the Chinese novel originally and some, but I don't know which, from Chinese folklore. The dragon kings of the oceans are definitely folklore but it's pure coincidence that Goujun's jun refers to wet stuff. My Chinese source tells me that the dragon names are common and almost peasantish sounding- Gou is the surname and the first names are Kou (wide), Shou (introduve), Jun and En (flames). Cf the blue dragon among the four guardians, Seiryuu, which is a much classier and high-sounding name from a quite different Chinese tradition.

More on topic- Tenpou and Hakkai both use boku and anata and speak what's generally called desu-masu-tai (desu-masu form), thus marking them from the da-tai and colloquial masculine forms used by everyone else. The effect to my ear is well-spoken (though still definitely male) but also, possibly, with a certain sense of distance and reserve and keeping the world at arm's length.

Re: '...more about dragons than I wanted to know'

[oyceter]

Oh cool, I didn't know that about dragon names!

And where from the Chinese novel do the Gaiden names come from? I read it a really long time ago and don't remember at all anymore. All I remember is that Nataku is from Chinese folklore.

I sort of figured almost all the meanings in the name were purely coincidental, but it's funny drawing connections anyhow ;).

Also, do you know what the characters are for the dragon names? I knew Seiryuu, but not the others, and can't quite figure out the kanji (I think I've got En and Kou, but not the rest).

Sigh, now I regret not reading Chinese folklore in, you know, Chinese.

Sort of figured Hakkai used desu-masu-tai as well... really want raws of Saiyuki now, especially because I want to see if he ever slips into casual and when!

Re: '...more about dragons than I wanted to know'

[(Anonymous)]

I remeber CLAMP's X manga included an explanation of the name 'Nataku', due to the Dragon of Earth with the same name.

Nataku was some kind of war god in Chinese mythology that was merely a created hunk of flesh with no soul or real ability to feel emotion.
Or something along those lines.

not to sound like a desperate junky but

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Say, do you know where I could get Saiyuki scans until I can buy the manga next Friday I promise I really am going to buy it?

Re: not to sound like a desperate junky but

[oyceter]

*snooooork*

I swear, I shall upload them tonight! Btw, do you have a comic reader on your computer? If not, I use CDisplay because I hate having to unzip everything just so I can page through them.

Re: not to sound like a desperate junky but

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do have CDisplay! ((pants eagerly))

[(Anonymous)]

What does Gonou name mean?

Found your journal on a search for connections between the two stories-sorry if this seems random

[sanzo-chama.livejournal.com]

The original Gojyo, from Journey to the West, had settled on Earth after being thrown out of heaven on the charge of murder. His title there was 'Curtain-raising General'. 'Kenren' seems to be a literal translation of that.

Re: Found your journal on a search for connections between the two stories-sorry if this seems rando

[oyceter]

Cool, thanks for the info!