Pollock, David C., and Ruth E. Van Reken - Third Culture Kids

[oyceter]

(subtitled The Experience of Growing Up Among Worlds, but it wouldn't fit in the subject field)

ETA: rachelmanija, this is the book I was talking about in the food post before. Offer to lend it still stands.

I liked this book more for what it wanted to say than for how it said it, if that makes any sense at all. Mostly I liked that little moment of revelation in which I went "Oh! There's a term for people like me." The premise is basically that third culture kids (TCKs) and ATCKs (adult third culture kids... er, you know what they mean) have more in common with each other, despite completely different cultural backgrounds, than they might have with people from cultural backgrounds that they partially share. Of course I generalize horribly when I say that I feel this is true, but in my own experience, having moved around to a different country is something that people have in common. Whether it's a closer bond than that shared by people who read the same books or watch the same TV shows is an entirely different matter.

My main problem with the book was just how anecdotal it all was. It's all good and fine to say that people's stories have similar threads to them, but I really wanted something much more substantive than aforementioned anecdotes. And then they took the anecdotes and began with common character traits of TCKs, and while that was sort of fun, part of me (most likely the bit still left over from AP Psychology in high school) kept thinking that the definitions were so vague and so flip-floppy that they could apply to anyone, not just TCKs. And once the authors began dispensing advice as to how to deal with TCKs (finding schools, etc.), it did get a little better. Well, mostly just the finding schools section, because it was more specific to the entire situation in which one is moving around. The others mostly just sounded like good overall family advice (aka. communicate with your kids. Duh).

Also, I kept getting confused by trying to find myself in the examples. Pollock defines a TCK as "a person who has spent a significant part of his or her developmental years outside the parents' culture" and adds that what distinguishes a TCK from an immigrant is the fact that there is the expectation that the TCK and family will eventually re-locate to the original home culture. I probably shouldn't be trying to make it so specific to fit me, but since I bought the book mostly for that reason, I did anyway. So I had a rather hard time figuring out what was supposed to be my home culture and what was the host culture. America should technically be the home culture, because that's where I first lived, and I have sort of adopted the host culture of Taiwan in a way that many of the other TCKs do. But according to the definition, it doesn't quite work, because America isn't my parents' culture. Whenever I try to figure out culture and nationality in context of my own life, I just end up with a giant mess on my hands. Pollock does briefly say something about children born in the host culture while their parents are staying there, but doesn't go into detail, and thereby skips the entire section I'm interested in for navel-gazing purposes.

I also wanted a large, fat study on if TCKs did have a sort of signature worldview, and what were common problems and benefits and etc, with lots of statistics and graphs that I would probably end up skimming over anyway. Actually, now that I think about it, I don't really want some giant psychology text. I want some giant treatise on culture and authenticity and liminality and the imagined communities of nation and ethnicity and the problems thereof. Of course, that's pretty much what I always want....

Comments

ping

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Didja tell rachelmanija about this? cause I remember she was interested in the term when it came up in your earlier cooking entry, and I don't think she'd read the book....I mean, probably she'll just see it on the flist, but maybe a pointer to make sure she didn't miss it would be appreciated.

Re: ping

[oyceter]

Yupper, this is the one.. er, not quite sure how to go about letting her know without looking silly.

Re: ping

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

I can do it!

Re: ping

[oyceter]

Oh, that would be good. I also did a shout-out above, so hopefully that will catch her eye too.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Thanks! (You guys are so sweet!) I'm getting slammed with work right now, so I might well have missed this if you hadn't pointed it out on my LJ.

I would like to borrow the book at some point, but not right now, because of the work stuff. But I enjoyed your notes on it.

My feeling is that the key difference between regular immigrants and third culture kids is that immigrants tend to feel that they have a home culture and an adopted culture, while third culture kids tend to feel that their parents' culture is as foreign/not foreign to them as whichever other culture they experienced. And I think this often occurs because kids are bounced back and forth at least once, rather than being born somewhere and then moving elsewhere and not moving again. So I would say that there is a difference, but it's psychological and based on a varied set of circumstances rather on a single rule.

And there may have been an expectation that my mother would some day leave India, but in fact, she's still there.

Re: ping

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

I left a comment in the top entry in her LJ, so she should see that -- ah, she did. Good!

immigrants

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

This is sort of a wandering not-on-topic observation but I was reminded of it by Rachel saying immigrants tend to feel that they have a home culture and an adopted culture -- that was v true of, say, my mother, who was a second-generation American and grew up speaking Hungarian til she was shamed out of it by the neighborhood kids at about four or five. But not one of the grandkids speaks Hungarian at all, let alone fluently, and we didn't grow up that immersed in Hungarian culture (except for some things like folktales and paprika). I saw something like this in NM with kids whose grandparents had emigrated from Mexico and who didn't speak Spanish, and their parents shamed them for it -- but at the same time there was also this desire that they grow up "American," whatever that meant. (And then there are all those disconnected Chinese mothers and Chinese-American daughters in Amy Tan....) I guess what I'm groping toward is really more something about assimilation and self-definition, which sorta fits in with the topic....

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

Yes! That's the one. Jackson Pollock came and spoke at our school two years in a row. The first time it was interesting and enlightening, although I agree he tended strongly to be anecdotal. The second time, I'm afraid we high schoolers were squirmy and chattering and very rude to him. :-/ The problem was, it was almost word-for-word the same speech and most of us had heard it before--not that this excuses the rudeness, but...yeah.

oyceter, you should talk to yuneicorn, who has her own collection of books on the subject, and who may have something less anecdotal on hand.

Re: immigrants

[oyceter]

Yeah, it's a strange topic. The weirdest bit for me is that if my family had stayed in the States, that process would probably have happened with me as well, but instead, there's even more confusion because I half grew up here and half in Taiwan. So I don't quite identify with ABCs like Amy Tan, although I recognize part of their experience.

But there seems to be this push (at least among people I know back in Taiwan) to want all the material benefits America has to offer (education, English, better living standards) and somehow try to preserve "Chinese-ness" if there is such thing, except the kids usually end up self-defining themselves as American. The weirdest thing is that I've noticed an interesting trend of Asian-Americans gravitating toward Chinese classes and Asian Studies in college as a sort of way to explore roots... I wonder if some form of this happens with everyone? Maybe college just brings out a desire to do these things?

[oyceter]

No worries! The book will still be there if you are ever inclined to read it.

Am nodding emphatically about your point on the differences between immigrants' kids and TCKs. I think the weirdest part about being a TCK is going back to the first culture -- you get all nice and settled and accustomed to the "foreign" place and then suddenly, wham, back where you started, except you don't fit where you used to.

Yeah, somehow, I doubt my parents are going to move away from Taiwan unless something drastic happens with the politics or the Taiwan Strait. Of course, given the current weirdness, you never know. But they do travel over here a fair amount, and there are assorted friends scattered all over the place.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Yeah-- the unkindest cut of all for me was when I returned to America thinking "This will be great! I'll fit in!" only to discover that my years in India had turned me into a weird foreigner by the time I returned.

Incidentally, I'm amazed that the post you're replying to made any sense at all, as I wrote it after drinking quite a lot of sake and beer since we'd all gone to the izakaya two blocks, so I could park my car, walk there, and walk home. Which I did, at about half-past midnight.

Well, the first time I was Japan (a country notorious for hard drinking) I was complimented on my ability to hold my liquor, so I guess that also extends to writing coherent posts while sozzled. Not that I intend to make a habit of it.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Two blocks from my house. No, I'm not still drunk. ;)

Re: immigrants

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

But there seems to be this push (at least among people I know back in Taiwan) to want all the material benefits America has to offer (education, English, better living standards) and somehow try to preserve "Chinese-ness" if there is such thing, except the kids usually end up self-defining themselves as American. The weirdest thing is that I've noticed an interesting trend of Asian-Americans gravitating toward Chinese classes and Asian Studies in college as a sort of way to explore roots... I wonder if some form of this happens with everyone? Maybe college just brings out a desire to do these things?

Actually that sort of echoes my experience again, because while the grandkids weren't interested in the folktales, Hungarian food, &c &c, while we were growing up, nearly all of us tried to learn Hungarian once we were in our 20s (with really sad results. Hungarian is not a language you want to attempt with an adult brain). The same thing even happened with my mother, who was bilingual til about five, then refused to speak Hungarian and forgot it all -- she tried to learn it again later as well, with about as much success as the rest of us. I think partly it's as people grow older they get more curious about their families and where they come from -- or children stop rebelling and see their families as halfway interesting, instead of smothering -- and in modern colleges you do have a lot more cultural offerings than even 20 years ago; also I think when kids go to college all of a sudden you're out in the world, on your own, having to define yourself, and suddenly your family looks more interesting, or at least it's something to fall back on. -- just me rambling, really.

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Well, the first time I was Japan (a country notorious for hard drinking) I was complimented on my ability to hold my liquor, so I guess that also extends to writing coherent posts while sozzled. Not that I intend to make a habit of it.

((is impressed)) Wow. I forget the expression for what that is -- hollow leg? Maybe you've got two of them!

[oyceter]

Heh, high school students always seem to be rude ;). I know my class was.

I really should find yuneicorn sometime... is she still around the Stanford area?

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

Yeah--she's working at Stanford, in fact. Drop her a note at her weblog (http://weblog.whylee.com), if you like. I think she keeps an eye on my legendae, so I think she's familiar with you. :-)

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

Ah, the joys of re-entry shock as well. yuneicorn's essay Odyssey: Abroad and Back (http://www.cityofveils.com/ykl/tck.phtml) discusses some of this, with references, some of which I've skimmed. ^_^

Re: immigrants

[oyceter]

Yeah, me too ^_^. After years and years of completely scoffing at Chinese classes back in high school, I ended up being an East Asian Studies major. But yes, I still regret that I didn't concentrate more on learning Chinese back when I lived in Taiwan, where it would have been ten times easier.

I think when kids go to college all of a sudden you're out in the world, on your own, having to define yourself, and suddenly your family looks more interesting, or at least it's something to fall back on. -- just me rambling, really.

That's how I felt in college! Like there was nothing really to hang on to, so I started by doing research into my own past -- all the stories of my grandpa being in the Navy, my grandparents having to immigrate to Taiwan from China because of the war, all that suddenly started being more interesting to me. Of course, half of being in EAS was also because I wanted to learn Japanese so I could write my thesis on Japanese girls' comics.

[oyceter]

Yeah.. I'm rather scared to go back to Taiwan because I'm pretty sure I won't fit, and then that will somehow affect all my old, happy memories (rose-tinted to begin with).

I'm also amazed at your drunken posting abilities! Wow. Put half a beer in me and watch me get completely incoherent (not that I'm that coherent to begin with).

[oyceter]

Oh coolness!

I drop by her blog and comment every so often, usually when I see a link on your LJ, but wasn't sure if she thought I was some strange stalker or something ;).

[yuneicorn.livejournal.com]

Sadly, my collection was sacrificed so I'd have less books to haul between dorms during a summer move. But I remember the Pollock and Van Reken as being the best of them. (Others were even more anecdotal, or less applicable to at least my own situation, focusing as they did on missionary kids and the like.) I agree it's somewhat lacking, but it was nice to have some sort of recognition. I suspect that, for a while, anything published will just rehash what we already know by living through it; it doesn't seem to be all that widely-known an issue. Still, I do occasionally search for related dissertations and articles. In the meantime I just gripe with friends who are also TCKs.

And no stalker suspicions, I'm just lousy at keeping up with blog comments. Apologies for my rudeness.

[oyceter]

Sadly, my collection was sacrificed so I'd have less books to haul between dorms during a summer move.

Oh, I so sympathize. I had to keep by book collection down to a measly bookcase and a half, and most of that consisted of my school books. Now that I have moved out and no longer need to pack every year, my book collection has exapnded at an alarming rate. Alarming to the boy. Rather comforting to me. I finally feel like I won't run out of books to read for a while now.

It's interesting that you point out the missionary kids! I saw a lot of mentions of them in the Pollock/Van Reken, and was curious. Most of the TCKs I know are tech kids whose parents went to grad school in the states to get physics degrees or EE or something. The others were usually diplomat's kids.

I usually gripe with my old classmates.

Re: immigrants

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

That's how I felt in college! Like there was nothing really to hang on to, so I started by doing research into my own past -- all the stories of my grandpa being in the Navy, my grandparents having to immigrate to Taiwan from China because of the war, all that suddenly started being more interesting to me. Of course, half of being in EAS was also because I wanted to learn Japanese so I could write my thesis on Japanese girls' comics.

Ooh my. Did you?

I'd love to find some kind of record of my grandpa emigrating (supposedly through Ellis Island) in I think the mid-20s, but haven't had any luck so far (admittedly have not tried that hard). But I can't say I'm exactly enthused about a lot of Hungarian cooking, because so much of it is based on FAT. As in lard. As in pouring off bacon grease and saving it up in a jar (which my grandma used to do). But apparently it works for East European peasants, cause my grandpa is on his way to his 102nd birthday and hasn't had a stroke or dimming of mental faculties and I think his cardiac health is fine as well....