Reading Wednesday

[oyceter]

What I've read: Finished my reread of Dawn for Wiscon \o/! I have various quotes highlighted for things like heteronormativity, consent issues, gender essentialism, slavery analogues, and etc., but I still need to mull over things and synthesize before I have anything particularly good to say. Aside from issues about gender and sexuality, which hopefully will get discussed in depth at the Wiscon panel, I'm really interested in how Butler deals with violence. And I'd like to compare Dawn to other post-apocalyptic books about rebuilding society, since I think many of them fall prey to the "The strongest will survive and this is just and right!" mindset that Butler doesn't necessarily avoid, but does try to complicate. Lilith's relationships with other women aren't explored as much, possibly due to the emphasis on pair bonding and reproduction. Some thoughts on how OSC's Worthing Saga has a section very much like Lilith Awakening various people and having to train them for life on Earth, though possibly I only see similarities because I don't read that much SF and therefore don't know other works with this general theme. Lilith vs. Jason Worthing and how the people they awaken and train react to them is especially informed by the characters' and authors' race and gender, imo.

What I'm reading: Partway through Adulthood Rites! Dawn ended much more abruptly than I had remembered, and there's a big shift between it and Adulthood Rites. So far: more notes on heteronormativity, gender essentialism, and violence, as well as a continuation of Humans as Other. I really want to poke at the idea of the specialness and risk of a Human-born male child.

What I'm reading next: For once, I am fairly certain! If all goes well, I will proceed to Imago.

Comments

[laurashapiro]

I have never really wanted to go to Wiscon before, but I would love to be at this panel. The heteronormativity of those books, in particular, is so weird and so obvious. I can't wait to hear about the great conversation you have!

[jesse_the_k]

We want you! We have scholarships! We have hundreds of people and also places to hide.

[laurashapiro]

Aw, thanks! It's not possible this year, I'm afraid. But I'll consider it for next year.

[oyceter]

I hope I will manage a report on it! Or that other people in the audience or on the panel will. I am so excited about this panel and in depth discussion! There is also so much human male anxiety in the books, particularly around homophobia and the ooloi encroaching on their sexual confidence.

[laurashapiro]

Oh, definitely. And yes with the gender essentialism. I'm sure someone will manage a write-up -- maybe several someones. I suspect it will be a popular panel.

Also I saw your other post and I didn't comment at the time because work, but ::hugs::

[oyceter]

Awww, thanks, and no worries on not commenting

[lnhammer]

Worthing Saga is, I think, the only other book I've met with that particular trope. Or maybe I should say the only one I remember.

---L.

[oyceter]

coffeeandink brought up Pamela Sargent's Earthseed as well, though I haven't read it.

[lnhammer]

Nor have I.

---L.

[coffeeandink]

The Worthing Saga:Dawn comparison is really interesting! I'm thinking about how The Worthing Saga fits into OSC's fetishization of pain, and how that interacts with his conservatism, versus Butler's sort of ... hopeful pessimism? OSC's attitude seems to be "We must endure this because people have always endured this!" whereas Butler's is more, "We're going to have to endure *something,* but it doesn't need to be this." The Xenogenesis take on innate propensities to hierarchy and violence is one of the most depressing things I've ever read, but it doesn't have the skin-crawling wrongness of OSC. I think it's that OSC treats his givens as morally righteous and Butler treats hers as biological inevitabilities that can be managed in moral or immoral ways.

[oyceter]

Ooo, any more details about the fetishization of pain in Wrothing Saga? I don't particularly remember much during the awakening sequence, though I associate it a lot with the specialer-than-thou narrative of Jason Worthing's early years, along with the whole "white man's burden" type thing he feels for having responsibility over his fledgling community.

I also think it's really interesting that both Jason and Lilith are in positions of power, with extra abilities the others don't have. But though Jason is threatened earlier in the series for his psychic powers, he's basically worshiped and loved by most of the people he raises on his world, almost all of whom are powerless when he awakens them. Lilith, on the other hand, knows they are going to see her as a threat and hate her for her abilities and her extra knowledge. Also, the person who is the biggest threat to Jason is a threat to his authority because that person still has memories from the Capitol days and a lot of the knowledge the people worship Jason for. Whereas the biggest threats to Lilith are people who will kill her.

I think there's a lot of assumption on how otherness and specialness gets treated: OSC sees it as something people hate Jason for, but it's a hate based on jealousy and admiration and it's wrong because Jason (and the Worthing family later) really is that special, whereas for Butler, Lilith is stuck with a thankless role that she didn't choose for herself and is hated for her difference. The hatred itself sucks, but it isn't necessarily wrong (I think Lilith understands it and buys into it in terms of self hatred); it's the expression of that hatred in violence that is the wrong thing. Privilege and exceptionalism versus always getting the wrong end of the stick.

[bibliofile]

It's been so long since I've read the Worthing books. But doesn't Card also see suffering as virtuous, and maybe that's where the righteousness comes from?

[thomasyan]

The Xenogenesis take on innate propensities to hierarchy and violence is one of the most depressing things I've ever read

I have trouble wrapping my head around that idea. When I read those books, and come across that idea, I just say, ok, time to apply willing suspension of disbelief.

Tangent 1: In terms of depressingness, for you, how does it compare to The Gate to Women's Country? Interestingly, WSOD of disbelief is easier for me around that book's idea about violence.

Tangent 2: I had trouble getting Adulthood Rites, so I read it after Imago. I don't recommend that order, but I guess it didn't turn out too bad for my enjoyment of the books.

[oracne]

I read the Worthing Saga but remember absolutely zilch. I didn't keep most of my OSC, either.

I didn't highlight quotes about the male sexual anxiety, so I'm glad you did! Do you want me to send you my file of quotes? It's...sort of long.

[oyceter]

Oooo, that would be great! I will send mine as soon as I figure out how to get them off my Nook...

[ambyr]

I am really sad I will be missing this panel; I find the way Xenogenesis handles issues of sex and gender fascinating.

[oyceter]

It is so weird! I kind of knew that going in, but my memories were pretty fuzzy, and on the reread, there are so many things that pop out.