Bwah!

[oyceter]

Went to Fandom Wank and found a really funny thread on some anti-yaoi community somewhere. All parties are arguing about yaoi, definitions and anime with some statements of expertise (I've had Japanese friends and taken a course on Japanese pop culture!). And the entire thing amuses me to no extent because all of them seem to be saying, "This is what it is, damnit, no ambiguity, just this!!" Hey, why didn't anyone tell me that? Then I could have just not written my thesis and spent those four or five years digging up books and articles on anime and yaoi somewhere else! It's not very nice laughing at them for getting things wrong, huh. I guess it was just how some of the people in the antiyaoi thread seemed to think their opinion was written in stone when in most of the scholarship I've read, things are very much up in the air.

Anyway, was really going to do a post on my thoughts about Angel S5, partially in response to one of scrollgirl's posts a while ago, on her problems with a certain character on Angel. Not bashy, scrollgirl! I just reread the post and was thinking about my ideal S5 again.

I'm extremely excited about S5 Angel. I think I can do this because 1) I have no problem with Spike 2) I wasn't supremely attached to Connor.

As to point one, I think I'm looking forward to having Spike on Angel because I keep thinking of it as a sort of Buffy S3. I kind of want Spike to be Angel's shadow self so that we can explore issues about vampires with souls in the same way season 3 managed to explore more about the nature of the Slayer with the addition of Faith. And I like Angel angst. Actually, I really want to see a shanshued Spike, because as so many people have said, it's not Angel's destiny to be happy. Angel tries to do what's best for those he loves and gets out of their lives; Angel broods; Angel sometimes believes he can never be redeemed. And how perfect would it be to bring all these things about Angel to light with human Spike there taunting him for his inadequacies and making him think about his own vampire nature and his soul? I want Angel to think about things like, why could vampire Spike go to Africa to seek out a soul when he had to be ensouled? And no, I'm not doing the this means Spike is so much better and a special vampire etc. argument, because I want to see what it says about Angel. Just like when Buffy had to completely rethink her own world view when hey, she wasn't the only Slayer in town. She wasn't special simply by being a Slayer anymore! And I think this would be a great chance to do it to Angel... he's not the only vamp with a soul anymore. So now what? Maybe he could have an Epiphany type epiphany -- maybe just being a vampire with a soul isn't good enough. Instead, maybe Angel is different because he's given all the people in AI a family, made them a home. Maybe it's because he believes in people like Faith, people who everyone else has given up on. I don't know. Anyhow, I want to see Spike on the show for that, to be Angel's shadow self.

As to point two... Just read a few interviews where Tim Minear and other Angel writers were talking about setting up Home, Jasmine, and Evil!Cordy since Loyalty! Wow. But yeah, I do have a few misgivings here. I hope they don't completely forget about Connor, because he was getting very interesting. That, and the mindwipe seriously interferes with continuity, although I'm interested in how they'll patch that up. So here's to the Angel crew figuring it out (and more Angel angst!).

I'm also very psyched about what they're doing with Gunn. Not that I know, but the boy has a storyline! Woohoo! I also am hoping for the return of morally ambiguous Fred, who zapped Connor and tried to kill someone. I kind of am seeing Fred as the last bastion of do-goodness of AI, who grows increasingly worried about the corruption and whatnot, because she didn't agree to be in there really. And she looked so hesitant in Home. And of course I'm looking forward to more Lilah/Wes, my current pairing of choice. Or just Lilah snarking at everyone, like in Calvary, and Wes being Wes.

Comments

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I hope the writers go with your idea, I too like Spike as Angel's shadow-self. It makes a lot of sense, works with the Buffy-Faith thing, and as long as the main focus is on Angel's journey, I probably won't have a problem with it.

Agree about Gunn! He looked so menacing as he stepped off the elevator, so my first thought was that he's evil or has been possessed. Just spec, of course. But then I thought, well, we already did the evil possession with Cordy. So what if the mind-meld is actually a good thing? And the cat wasn't taking over him so much as opening his eyes to possibilities? Cuz I think a big theme of next season will be choice and free will.

And wow, Fred is the good one. Never thought about it that way, but yeah, she really is despite the whole professor thing. Here's what I figure: Gunn is in tight with W&H, reasons unknown. Angel is in with his eyes wide open, willing to use Lilah but ready for her backstabbing. Still, he might drop his guard at some point. Lorne is in, willing to be seduced by the sparklies.

Wesley is the interesting one because, when you get right down to it, W&H under Wesley's control? Is pretty much the Council with books *and* state-of-the-art technology. Will he fall into Quentin Travers' mentalitiy where the people he helps becomes mere pawns? Wes has never been great with emotional connections, despite his ability to sense people's motivations. He could end up as cold as his father. The Wes in my head comes from a privileged class. He's used to money and resources. So he can either: (1) be really effective using W&H for good, while remaining aware that helping the helpless requires emotional connections; (2) be effective, and emotionally cold; (3) *think* he's being effective, while really being so seduced with power that he forgets W&H is still evil; (4) some combination of these.

And I really do hope they don't drop Connor. I don't think they will because Joss has never been one for easy, not-messy endings. And the mind-wipe, while not *easy* for Angel, has no real consequences for anyone other than Angel.

[oyceter]

Ditto. I very much want it to be about Angel's journey, even though I am a Spike fan. I prefer my non-main-characters to be.. well, not main characters. And I so want it to be an exploration of the Jossverse soul, mostly because I'm so confused about that still (Angelus and Angel... same? not? huh?).

Ooh, Gunn spec is going to be so fun! I've heard theories about him being part of the new Ra-Tet or something. I'm not sure, but I feel like he's going to get superpowers or the like. Or become some sort of avatar. Maybe he'll even be something like the anti-Cordy -- possessed by a power that's neither good nor evil and acting as a conduit to the Senior Partners? Or he's some kind of anti-Xander. I can definitely see choice and free will being very big (esp. if the gang finds out about Angel's mind manipulation... granted, for a good purpose, but still). I also wonder if they're going to tackle the idea of power for Gunn. What's he going to do with it?

I think both Wes and Fred'll be interesting wild cards in the next season. Does the AI gang know that Wes basically went in for Lilah? And I love your idea of W&H being a kind of new Watcher's Council! I can very much see a Wes who believes he's being completely effective yet missing the point entirely (ala Loyalty and Sleep Tight). Maybe even a Wes blinded by his doggedness to try to get Lilah out of hell, so much so that he's the most easily manipulated out of any of them by the Senior Partners or whatnot.

This sounds kind of heretical, but I'd almost like to see Wes and Fred get together. It could be so terrifyingly destructive -- Wes trying desperately to love her because Lilah's already in hell and irredeemable, Fred being put off by Wes' use of power. MMmmm, I live off angst. After Magic Bullet and the entire Jasmine arc, I now have great hopes for Fred (who I'm really starting to like).

And I can't possibly see them dropping Connor without somehow addressing the issue. Especially with how the mindwipe screws up everyone's character development. I think I read on Shadowkat's Succubus Club transcription that they're thinking about having a one-shot episode in which a family brings in their teenaged boy, who's developing some really weird powers... Angel angst, maybe Angel has to explain to AI, happy!Connor. Sounds like an interesting potential ep idea.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Ra-Tet would be fascinating, only I thought they were all killed? But the cat is probably some replacement, and linked to the Senior Partners somehow. I don't know about super-powers though, Gunn is like Xander in that he works best cuz he *doesn't* have powers. He's just an ordinary guy who's been fighting demons all his life, cuz he didn't have any other choice. Of course, it all depends on how they deal with his powers (if he gets any). Will be interesting either way, IMO.

Don't think the gang has any clue about what Wes would do for Lilah. Wes comes off as very cold and pragmatic most times, but really when you examine his motivations, lots of times he does really crazy things just because he cares about his friends. Kidnapping Connor, breaking Faith out of jail, being willing to die if it meant taking down Angelus, infiltrating W&H for Lilah.

But Wes/Fred? Eep, I don't know if I'm ready for that just yet! Maybe a little UST, as long as we still have the Wes/Lilah UST. Or maybe Wes/Lilah resuming their doomed love affair -- does it count as necrophilia if she's mobile and sentient? Heh. I mean, at least Angel gets booty, why not Lilah?

I am liking Fred better, but I think what she needs is to stand on her own. One thing I've loved about her development this season is how the writers show how much she depends on the guys, feels safe with them. She's a survivor, and after Pylea, I get why she wants the big, strong hero-type around, just in case. But I want her to be strong on her own too, like in "Magic Bullet".

Don't know how Connor will be worked back in. Just trusting Joss that he *will* be worked back in! Don't know if I'd be satisfied with a one-shot ep.

[oyceter]

I almost wonder if they're going to make Gunn the most powerful of them all. It seemed as though something like that happened, especially with Fred's comment about Gunn seeming taller. I guess one does not go in the White Room and come out unchanged. I feel like Xander has always been heart guy, but Gunn is not so much. As Gunn so deprecatingly describes himself, he's the muscle guy. Except he's not. He's smart and suave and he seems to have regained all his self confidence and more thanks to W&H. Very curious about Gunn's path.

I can very much see Wes trying to work it out with Fred because Lilah is unattainable or unredeemable. It seems like something Wes would do, especially given how many times he tried going after what seemed to be the "right" woman prior to Lilah's death. But I can also see that as being a desperate attempt to try to make Lilah's existence and predicament hurt less. And I have a lovely scene in my head where Fred tells Wes that he's being stupid, that it's not about holding hands, and that he should just have sex with the dead girl and leave Fred out of it because she's sick of being everyone's role model. Mmm, that would be fun. With smirky Lilah nodding in the background. Me and my strange mind... ;)

Re:

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

where Fred tells Wes that he's being stupid, that it's not about holding hands, and that he should just have sex with the dead girl and leave Fred out of it because she's sick of being everyone's role model. Mmm, that would be fun. With smirky Lilah nodding in the background.

Your strange brain is very fun ;) This is priceless! and I could kinda see it happening. Deluded!Wes and Long-suffering!Fred and DeadandBemused!Lilah. It could work...

Y'know, I think you may be on the right track. Better track than me, anyway. Cuz the "taller", self-confident thing is important. Would make sense that it's a foreshadowing of Gunn getting more power of some sort. Wonder what it'll be. Maybe something like Cordy's visions? But that would be treading old ground. Maybe less visiony and more like Jasmine's all-knowing, when she could feel/read the minds of everybody. An almost zen-like knowing of how the cosmos works. Or I could just be making it all up in my head!

[oyceter]

Your strange brain is very fun

Hee! Or my fun brain is very strange... or... I'm just strange ;).

Gunn fic! There is a need for Gunn fic! So many possibilities, it just blows the mind.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Agree, there needs to be more Gunn fic in this world. Gunn fic with black jaguars/panthers in it.

Btw, my grandma's in surgery, and my parents won't be home until morning. So I'm heading off to bed. Thanks again for your good wishes, Oyceter :)

[oyceter]

New pairing.. Gunn/panther? Hee.

*hugs*

Um...

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

And the mind-wipe, while not *easy* for Angel, has no real consequences for anyone other than Angel.

I'm bored at work today, so I'm reading people's old LJ entries. So you may already know this, Scroll, but I'm going to go into my Wesley!Continuity rant anyway because it's my *hot button issue*. Or actually, it's the the hot button issue I can actually think about. If I think about Connor being gone, I will possibly implode.

Anyway. The mind-wipe effects Wesley's character continuity completely and has MAJOR consequences for him as a character.

In Season 3, Wesley went through one of the most emotionally wrenching trials of his life. In an attempt to prevent Angel from killing his own son, he took Connor away. Although he was well-intentioned, this action lead to a chain of events that took Wesley into darkness.

Holtz got his hands on Connor and took him into a hell dimension. Wesley got his throat cut. Angel found himself unable to forgive Wesley, and Angel's friends kept their distance as well. The only hand reaching out to Wesley was the duplicitious hand of an enemy, and Wesley took that hand for a while. He flirted with Lilah and with the darkness within, tested his mettle against it, got in touch with his own inner tough-guy and came through the tunnel to the other side.

Now all of that is in danger of being forgotten. Re-written. Because the event that triggered it all--the kidnapping of Angel's baby--has been forgotten. "Connor who?" Fred says at the end of Home.

How can Wesley make sense of the character development he's been through in the last year and a half if he doesn't remember Connor? How can ME (Mutant Enemy, the Angel writers) keep Wesley's character integrity in tact if they have to rewrite the events of Seasons 3 and 4 to "write Connor out"?

Re: Um...

[oyceter]

Oh I very much agree. I read back, and I got the impression (but my opinion, obviously) that Scroll was saying the no real consequences was the whole problem of the Connor solution. The Angel writing team doesn't show the consequences, even though obviously there have to be giant ones!

Although I read a great fic by jennyo --Angel/Wes, Wes/Lilah implied -- that did wonderful things with what the forgetting of Connor would imply for Wes and Lilah.