oyceter | Angel 5x18 Origin

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Angel 5x18 Origin

First impressions: Yes! Gunn is still in the credits and therefore Not Dead!

And: CONNOR!! Eee, he's so cute and happy ^_^.

I liked Illyria much more in this episode, beating up Spike, wanting him for a pet, and sundry. Although, on a superficial note: did they get AA a new wig or something? It looks different and not that great.

I was extremely creeped out by the Gunn scenes, particularly the one in which he asks for the necklace back. Like with Wesley, Angel or someone should tell him to decide to live instead of slowly die on the inside. It reminds me of the Sandman issue of Orpheus, and Morpheus saying to his son: "She is dead. You are alive. So live." Not the kindest of sentiments, but extremely to the point. Or like Angel said in the episode before, they paid a high price for the knowledge in Gunn's head, and right now they can't even use it.

I can't even begin to go through the layers in this episode (as re last week), the constant mention of family, both real and constructed, obviously hitting a sore spot with Angel for his lost son. Angel has, in a sense, lost his other family as well -- Cordy is dead, and it seems as though Wes is just as good as dead to him. To give Connor a family, Angel has lost two. Also, if I were Angel, I would not be letting Wes go around free range, particularly with Illyria in his custody.

I am finding that I enjoy being unspoiled -- this is the first time ever that I've been unspoiled for Angel or Buffy. Well, I've gone through episodes unspoiled, the most prominent being Grave and the Giles!squee, but this is the first season in which I have no idea what's going on. Part of this is because I started watching Buffy around S5 and sort of skipped around seasons; whereas for Angel, I had read enough fic to know in general where things were going. So Wes dropping the box, whoa. Glued to the screen, hand to my mouth, half afraid that Joss still wasn't going to go there.

But ooo, now I look forward very much to next week and to ramifications! Let there be ramifications galore!

Unfortunately, Connor doesn't seem to be one -- did the barrier prevent the spell from working? Or did 17 odd years of fabricated memory overlaid on painful ones make Connor decide that he forgave his father and that his other family needed him as well? (Haha, I also spent a good portion of the episode wondering how pissed off Masq was going to be!)

Wes doesn't look half as happy to have them back. After watching Eternal Sunshine, I still find myself wondering if there are memories so bad that not having them is better.

Angel's house of cards is tumbling down on him, has been the entire season, and now it's just catching up with him.

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Dude. Connor totally knew, and made his choice. I'm one of those weirdos who thinks Angel's choice of mindwipe wasn't all bad, and I very much wanted anyone who found out about it (Wes, etc.) to realize that Angel's intentions were good. Given Wes and Connor's last lines, I think my wish was granted. :)

.m

That's what I thought, but then started wondering again. Good good.

Very good.

But gah, Wes's last line.

Right there with the Connor totally knew viewpoint -- also, IIRC, the people affected by the Shiny!Box are the ones nearby when it's destroyed. So, my particular fanwank goes, Connor's parents aren't going to have the two sets of memories -- one fabricated, one not -- and they're going to want him to return home just like always. So it's not entirely that he's just going back to his great life, but he has people there who depend on him, too.

Wes getting his memories back reminded me of Buffy in "Tabula Rasa" when she got her memories back -- and they dropped her before the vampire's punch did. Owwww. I think (this is speculation, not spoilage) Wes is going to go seriously batshit psycho, if he hasn't already. I'm really interested to see how he reacts to Angel in the next couple of eps.

I was unspoiled for the specifics of the ep -- apart from "Connor comes back and fights Sahjhzn-wtf-his-name-is," with the hope the mindwipe would be partly resolved. And man, I enjoyed the episode so much more unspoiled....had especially the same reaction you did to Wes dropping the box.

also, IIRC, the people affected by the Shiny!Box are the ones nearby when it's destroyed. So, my particular fanwank goes, Connor's parents aren't going to have the two sets of memories -- one fabricated, one not -- and they're going to want him to return home just like always.

Is that fanwank, though? I thought that was in the text. By this logic, although we'll have to wait next week to see, Lorne won't have had his memories restored. I wonder if anyone will tell him.

And man, I enjoyed the episode so much more unspoiled....had especially the same reaction you did to Wes dropping the box.

I agree. I knew exactly as much as you did: Connor and Sajhan. And the last act in particular made me thank myself for not getting myself spoiled. It's moments like that you need to not know what is going to happen to get the full impact.

Is that fanwank, though? I thought that was in the text. By this logic, although we'll have to wait next week to see, Lorne won't have had his memories restored. I wonder if anyone will tell him.

Yeah, it'll be Lorne and Gunn, right? And Harmony too, for that matter (did she know Angel had a son anyway?). Maybe we'll just get a "here's the 411" blip for them.

I agree. I knew exactly as much as you did: Connor and Sajhan. And the last act in particular made me thank myself for not getting myself spoiled. It's moments like that you need to not know what is going to happen to get the full impact.

Oooooooh, yeah. The constant internet spoiling would drive me crazy if I were writing a movie/television show, I think. For some reason there isn't really a Harry Knowles for books....

...and Gunn, right? And Harmony too, for that matter (did she know Angel had a son anyway?).

Oh, yeah! I figured at least for the time being, with Gunn's memory all gone anyway, his not knowing isn't an issue. Harmony would probably be surprised, but I doubt her memories were affected too much if at all (in some butterfly effect type way) by the mindwipe.

For some reason there isn't really a Harry Knowles for books....

INteresting point. Maybe it's because book readers are more patient as a general rule. You actually have to read through the book to get the full story as opposed to the relatively instant gratification of watching a film or TV show.

Oh, yeah! I figured at least for the time being, with Gunn's memory all gone anyway, his not knowing isn't an issue. Harmony would probably be surprised, but I doubt her memories were affected too much if at all (in some butterfly effect type way) by the mindwipe.

Sadly I have already started to fanwank the Lilah-Wes memories. He remembered he had to cut her into little pieces (sic) cause she'd been stabbed in the neck by a higher power in "Lineage" and knew Cordelia wasn't responsible in "You're Welcome," but I'll be damned if there wasn't a shot of Lilah-as-Fred in the montage....(I personally think there was no way Wesley would've hooked up with Lilah if he hadn't been as isolated as he was without the MoG, but maybe it's just a writer continuity screw-up.)

That is interesting about books. It was interesting to watch how reviewers didn't spoil the story when the LOTR movies were out -- presumably because the books were already famous and known to a big audience, but I knew people who started reading the books because of the movies and were unspoiled for both, if that makes sense.

Ooo, didn't think about the TR connection, but yes -- he's had this reprieve, and then, wham!

I have no idea where ME is going to go with this! Part of me thinks Wes is going to go absolutely nuts, and another part thinks he might actually understand.

I love this feeling of not knowing!

I have no idea where ME is going to go with this! Part of me thinks Wes is going to go absolutely nuts, and another part thinks he might actually understand.

I have nooooo idea. Poor Wes's track record isn't so great sanity-wise, and I can imagine realizing he's been this messed-with by Angel could drive him right over the edge. Illyria seemed to be watching him very closely in this ep -- was it me or was her "He no longer follows you" spookily triumphant? (I have to wonder how he's going to deal with the memories of Lilah, too....)

I love this feeling of not knowing!

I think it can be diagnosed as "Narrative Suspense Due To Lack of Wildfeeds" ((grin)).

Or "Narrative Suspense Due to Being Unspoiled for the First Time Ever"! ;). It's such an odd feeling.

I am really interested in seeing how often ME can make Wes fall apart, and all because of this memory wipe -- Wes falls apart in S3, then redux in S5 with Lineage and then Illyria almost because he doesn't remember, and now that he does again, who knows!

I have the feeling ME is going to come up to me with a limp, broken Wesley in its mouth, like one of my cats when it's finally played the life out of its prey, with that same bright-eyed look: "Broken. You fix now? More play?"

Also, if I were Angel, I would not be letting Wes go around free range, particularly with Illyria in his custody.

Can I just say Word? This could lead to some serious fallout.

A good number of ATPoers wondering how Masq was (or was not) enjoying the episode last night. My Connor ~~insanity~~ fandom is the stuff of legends.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Masq was toasted and alternating between jumping up and down on the living room carpet in glee and cheering at the television screen to wake the neighbors and bawling her eyes out. My cats thought I was nuts. Oops, they know that already.

Glued to the screen, hand to my mouth, half afraid that Joss still wasn't going to go there.

I learned my lesson about spoilers back in season 3 of BtVS. You can learn what's going to happen by reading it dry words on a page through some fan's point of view, or you can learn what's going to happen by having it viscerally spill out at you in sound and color on the television set. Your stomach in knots. Your hand around a glass of Pinot Noir because you fear the worst will happen. Your stomach rising and seizing with glee when some unexpected character appears on the screen!

Nothing beats, nothing beats being unspoiled.

Oo, you were spoiled for S3?

Mostly I've been spoiled because that's just kind of how I started watching series TV -- with anime series, I seemed to always get in at a point in which I could get my hands easily on the end of the series, but not the beginning. It's kind of interesting that way too, like watching Memento, trying to figure out how all the characters get to that point.

Plus, being in Taiwan and being an X-Files fan didn't lend to unspoiledness either ;).

But, whoa, so glad I'm watching the last season of Angel unspoiled. Like I was kind of glad I watched the last season of Buffy spoiled -- I think I would have been a lot more disappointed in what had happened if I hadn't known.

Oo, you were spoiled for S3?

I watched the first two seasons of BtVS all by my lonely little ol' lonesome--no internet fandom. I started lurking at the Bronze during the summer between seasons 2 and 3, mostly because I wanted reassurances Angel was coming back somehow. I wanted to be spoiled on that.

Lurking during the first half of season 3, I was drawn into delurking by the big Buffy/Faith slash crowd on the Bronze. It wasn't about writing fic, it was about hanging out with like-minded fans talking subtext. I would go to spoiler sites to find out what would happen. There was something important that went down in season 3, I don't even remember what it was--Trick dying, Faith going to the Mayor's side--but I was mad about finding it out before hand. Totally ruined the experience of it.

I read what other people were writing about being spoiled, about how they knew Kendra the "second slayer" was coming before she showed up. How they knew it was Jenny who was going to die in "Passion". I remember thinking, "God I am SO glad I didn't know about those things before hand!" It would have taken away the whole surprise. The delight or fear you feel as the story unfolds before your eyes.

I became a card-carrying loyal spoiler-phobe and I never looked back until the week before "Home" aired last season. And that scared me right back into purity again.

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Angel 5x18 Origin

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Because it's all about me!

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