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Buffy 5x10 Into the Woods
Well. I liked it till the Xander speech...
The Xander speech really made me just want to go strangle something, heh.
The Buffy and Riley argument made me sniffly, mostly because I think I sound exactly like Buffy when I argue, in the sort of close myself off immediately, flip the argument around as much as possible way. That said, I also think she had very good points. So did Riley, and I liked how he kept trying not to put the blame on her. I don't know if they were doing this intentionally, but the Riley going off to be bitten by vamps thing is basically just like a husband going off and having an affair -- the arguments all sound the same, not getting the same thing from the wife, and yes, while I am very down on the cheating, I do also see how it can rise up from situations like that. Unfortunately for the episode, the previous bits of S5 weren't really able to convince me that it was Buffy's coldness that was off-putting, as opposed to Riley's own insecurities about himself. So the entire time Riley was going on about the hunger of the vamps, I was fully agreeing with Buffy when she asked, "So that's somehow my fault?!"
And it was going ok, and I wasn't even all that mad at Riley when he issued his ultimatum, because people do things like that when they get pissed off.
Then there was the Xander speech, which was all sorts of wrong. I find that either I really like Xander, or I really really detest him. This was definitely a detest Xander moment (sorry Xander fans!). And while I guess you can say that it was just Xander's POV, the way the end of the episode played out made it seem as though the writers were trying to hammer in that Xander was right! I completely disagreed when he said he could see the implosion coming from miles away -- yes, Buffy was more withdrawn lately, but she was withdrawn from the entire Scooby gang, and really, I think the situation of having your mother in the hospital with a potentially lethal brain tumor is more than an adequate excuse for emotional not-thereness. Also, I don't particularly remember any moment in which Buffy really pushed Riley away, or really did anything that she didn't do in S4. So no, I didn't think Buffy was just treating Riley as rebound guy, nor did I really think she was taking him for granted. I think that yes, her mom's situation made her not focus on Riley in that period, but again, really not blaming her for that. I also think it was particularly harsh of Xander to come down on her like that, and that Buffy was really right on the money with the Anya comparison.
I don't know. It just annoys me that just because Buffy was not gushy and cooey like she was over Angel in S2 that it automatically means she somehow didn't love Riley enough. Plus, I thought it was very set up in the previous episodes that a lot of the friction was because Riley was having a hard time dealing with the fact that he had to be strong and manly and that he wasn't necessarily the dominant male in the relationship. And then suddenly they flip it around and make it all about Buffy's emotional withdrawnness. Don't get it.
And then there was the coda with Xander and Anya which was all sorts of wrong with me. I like Anya, and I don't particularly like the way Xander talks to her (most of what we see on screen is Xander telling Anya not to do stuff, not to be tactless, etc.). So holding up Xander and Anya as the epitome of the loving caring relationship and juxtaposing that with the apparent wrongness of Buffy and Riley was not to my taste. At all. Because although Xander says he can see the cracks in Buffy and Riley's relationship, I as a viewer personally have more problems with the Xander and Anya relationship. And then Xander has this line in which he says that Anya makes him feel all manly, at which point I felt like hitting something.
So, no. Excise the last ten minutes or so and keep the ambiguousness of two people too stubborn to back down and talk with Buffy and Riley, and it would have played ok with me. But they had to stick in the whole Buffy is too cold and emotionally withdrawn! thing. Ugh.
The Xander speech really made me just want to go strangle something, heh.
The Buffy and Riley argument made me sniffly, mostly because I think I sound exactly like Buffy when I argue, in the sort of close myself off immediately, flip the argument around as much as possible way. That said, I also think she had very good points. So did Riley, and I liked how he kept trying not to put the blame on her. I don't know if they were doing this intentionally, but the Riley going off to be bitten by vamps thing is basically just like a husband going off and having an affair -- the arguments all sound the same, not getting the same thing from the wife, and yes, while I am very down on the cheating, I do also see how it can rise up from situations like that. Unfortunately for the episode, the previous bits of S5 weren't really able to convince me that it was Buffy's coldness that was off-putting, as opposed to Riley's own insecurities about himself. So the entire time Riley was going on about the hunger of the vamps, I was fully agreeing with Buffy when she asked, "So that's somehow my fault?!"
And it was going ok, and I wasn't even all that mad at Riley when he issued his ultimatum, because people do things like that when they get pissed off.
Then there was the Xander speech, which was all sorts of wrong. I find that either I really like Xander, or I really really detest him. This was definitely a detest Xander moment (sorry Xander fans!). And while I guess you can say that it was just Xander's POV, the way the end of the episode played out made it seem as though the writers were trying to hammer in that Xander was right! I completely disagreed when he said he could see the implosion coming from miles away -- yes, Buffy was more withdrawn lately, but she was withdrawn from the entire Scooby gang, and really, I think the situation of having your mother in the hospital with a potentially lethal brain tumor is more than an adequate excuse for emotional not-thereness. Also, I don't particularly remember any moment in which Buffy really pushed Riley away, or really did anything that she didn't do in S4. So no, I didn't think Buffy was just treating Riley as rebound guy, nor did I really think she was taking him for granted. I think that yes, her mom's situation made her not focus on Riley in that period, but again, really not blaming her for that. I also think it was particularly harsh of Xander to come down on her like that, and that Buffy was really right on the money with the Anya comparison.
I don't know. It just annoys me that just because Buffy was not gushy and cooey like she was over Angel in S2 that it automatically means she somehow didn't love Riley enough. Plus, I thought it was very set up in the previous episodes that a lot of the friction was because Riley was having a hard time dealing with the fact that he had to be strong and manly and that he wasn't necessarily the dominant male in the relationship. And then suddenly they flip it around and make it all about Buffy's emotional withdrawnness. Don't get it.
And then there was the coda with Xander and Anya which was all sorts of wrong with me. I like Anya, and I don't particularly like the way Xander talks to her (most of what we see on screen is Xander telling Anya not to do stuff, not to be tactless, etc.). So holding up Xander and Anya as the epitome of the loving caring relationship and juxtaposing that with the apparent wrongness of Buffy and Riley was not to my taste. At all. Because although Xander says he can see the cracks in Buffy and Riley's relationship, I as a viewer personally have more problems with the Xander and Anya relationship. And then Xander has this line in which he says that Anya makes him feel all manly, at which point I felt like hitting something.
So, no. Excise the last ten minutes or so and keep the ambiguousness of two people too stubborn to back down and talk with Buffy and Riley, and it would have played ok with me. But they had to stick in the whole Buffy is too cold and emotionally withdrawn! thing. Ugh.
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It really is hard to tell if the writers agree or not! But everything in the episode seemed to point strong to the fact that Xander was right, with Buffy taking his advice and him getting to go home to his beloved Anya. Blech.
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Oy, yes. Xander's whole bit about rebounding and pushing away doesn't really hold water in light of Season 4, The Year of Riley. Where the Wild Things Are, anyone? (An episode I have no desire to watch ever again)
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I love Xander, but in general, I go on the assumption that we're supposed to think he's hypocritical and full of shit. Adorable maybe, but hardly an accurate judge of people or emotional situations.
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Argh... generally I get that, but in this case it seemed like his speech was so justified by the ending! It frustrated me.
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Actually, Buffy never said she was "in love" with Riley. The only time she ever says she loves him, onscreen, is in "Sanctuary" on AtS, when she tells Angel "I have someone that I love" to hurt him. That doesn't necessarily mean that Buffy does or does not love Riley. But she never actually says so, herself. Either way.
Heh
The other thing was that part of the power of Xander's speech is that I believe he was entirely sincere in wanting Buffy to give Riley another chance. Perhaps too sincere. It wasn't Buffy who needed to make the relationship work with Riley, it was Xander who needed Buffy to be able to love Riley, for Riley to be someone Buffy could love that way. Because if she couldn't love a 'normal' guy like Riley who was smart and strong and could fight alongside her and whom she found attractive, then what hope could he ever have had that she might have loved him that way? Xander, I believe, came close to a little hero-worship with Riley and was possibly more distraught at Buffy and Riley breaking up than Buffy was at the time (who was, in my opinion, rightly angry at the time frame she was given to figure things out) and gave that impassioned speech as much (and possibly more) for himself than for her.
Adding to this...
I think Xander needed for Riley and Buffy to work it out for himself for another reason as well...Now that we know of all the silent doubts and worries in Xander's mind about his relationship with Anya, along with his hero-worship of Riley, he thought if Riley and Buffy can work it out, then maybe Anya and he could turn out happily ever after in the end, as well. And interestingly, after Buffy's breakup with Riley, she transfers her sadness over her relationship with Riley to worrying over Xander and Anya's relationship staying strong. I'm thinking of when she cries, saying what a beautiful relationship the two have, something she didn't notice or feel until she and Riley split up.
Re: Adding to this...
Re: Heh
And while Xander was probably displacing his need for love from Buffy onto Riley, I think in a way he was sort of projecting himself onto Buffy as well -- as Buffy pointed out, he was basically treating Anya in the same way he claimed she was treating Riley. Maybe he sort of was yelling at himself (ala Buffy beating herself up in Who Are You and Dead Things). Hrm, must think more.
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Personally I liked this episode, because I never liked Riley and this is the one where he leaves! I'm a bitch, lol.
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It annoyed me that he felt he wasn't good enough because he wasn't stronger. Actually, that didn't annoy me, because I got that, but it annoyed me that the narrative supported it and said that it was Buffy's strength that was the problem, almost.
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d00d, it was way too realistic an argument for me (in the same way a lot of S6 reminds me wayy too much of times in my life when I was depressed &c). I'm sitting there going "Aaaaaaaaaagh....I've had this argument! Aaaaaagh!"
Unfortunately for the episode, the previous bits of S5 weren't really able to convince me that it was Buffy's coldness that was off-putting, as opposed to Riley's own insecurities about himself
What I really, totally, absolutely did not like about this ep (besides the dreadful ending where she's running after the helicopter) was that although the gender dynamics are interestingly flipped, in that Riley's the one who wants more emotional closeness while Buffy's the one who shuts down when she's under severe stress, it also winds up buying back into stereotypes of the Powerful Woman Cannot Be Emotionally Successful -- if she's not supportive and emotive and more aware of her (male) partner's needs than her own, she's not really feminine. I actually couldn't believe Riley was giving her an ultimatum in the middle of all the stress she was under, because in my experience if you push someone that hard when they're that freaked out they are not going to make a good choice.
Then there was the Xander speech, which was all sorts of wrong. I find that either I really like Xander, or I really really detest him. This was definitely a detest Xander moment (sorry Xander fans!).
No, I think that's true abt Xander -- I usually really like the character in general, but then there are times when you just want to SMACK him ("Kick his ass" being the prime example). "And you're about to let him fly because you don't like ultimatums?" ARRRRRGGGGHHH. Wellyeah, if someone gives me an ULTIMATUM, I'm not likely to give them a hug. Je-sus. And although Riley's the one who's leaving, it's Buffy's fault that she doesn't stop him by telling him how much she wants him to stay, and Xander's speech totally buys into that and underlines it -- "But if you really think you can love this guy ... I'm talking scary, messy, no-emotions-barred need...."
I thought it was very set up in the previous episodes that a lot of the friction was because Riley was having a hard time dealing with the fact that he had to be strong and manly and that he wasn't necessarily the dominant male in the relationship. And then suddenly they flip it around and make it all about Buffy's emotional withdrawnness
Yes! Bingo. They took a potentially interesting situation ("What are you now? Mission's boyfriend?") where the male partner was the weaker one and having all kinds of trouble with it, then turned it right around into The-woman-doesn't-truly-love-because-she's-emotionally-repressed.
And then there was the coda with Xander and Anya which was all sorts of wrong with me. I like Anya, and I don't particularly like the way Xander talks to her (most of what we see on screen is Xander telling Anya not to do stuff, not to be tactless, etc.)
Ah, see, NB sells the 2nd speech ("Powerfully, painfully in love") so well I SWOON, and while swooning forget to switch brain back on for analysis. Maybe partly in defense of Xander here (swoon may still be affecting brain), he's talking to himself as much as he is to Buffy -- telling himself not to miss the chance. I think in a way the next ep, "Triangle," is almost a mirror version of this one or parts of ITW are a setup for T -- you've got Spike trying to apologize to Buffy for what he showed her and Willow and Anya both confronting their fears about losing Xander (albeit comedically), and I think the next extended scene they have together is in "The Gift," where he takes her a lot more seriously, and proposes.
Wank wank wank wank....
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Yeah. He has some moments of hypocrisy/sanctimony that can be very frustrating, particularly w/respect to Buffy. (Does reaming Buffy out for getting illicit smoochies make you feel better about cheating on your girlfriend?) The speech is frustrating, but in a Xander way - it's part loyalty and hope, and part blindness to what Buffy really wants or values. Because if he'd been so observant about her relationship, it would have been nice of him to have said something a bit sooner...
His speech doesn't bug me. That Buffy is completely taken by it and runs for the chopper, does.
And although Riley's the one who's leaving, it's Buffy's fault that she doesn't stop him by telling him how much she wants him to stay, and Xander's speech totally buys into that and underlines it -- "But if you really think you can love this guy ... I'm talking scary, messy, no-emotions-barred need...."
I think part of this is a Marti Noxon thing, because she seems to always have a certain crush on whomever she's writing as the guy in love with Buffy for that season...(something she's said in interviews before) So it gets flipped to being about something wrong with Buffy that she can't love this guy... Instead of perhaps examining whether she's actually in love with him at all. Sometimes people are "not in love" enough, not because they're screwed up, but just because they aren't - and that's just how it is. And they'll repeat it in S6, when Spike's story spends an inordinate amount of time wrapped up in questioning why Buffy doesn't love him back as much as he wants her to.
IMHO, Noxon's story here seems like it it's looking to find a reason for something that may not acutally have reasons...Sometimes, and I could be wrong, but it seems to me like Noxon in particular writes as though there must be something wrong with Buffy to not love these men back in the way they want her to - when maybe she's just being who she is - and how screwed up she is or isn't is actually beside the point.
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Let's be clear - the story lines are mapped out as a group between the M.E. writers, with Whedon and Noxon having a key input over this. However, when you see something like Into The Woods - part of a story arc - you see things shine through. Marti has actually said before in interviews that she tends to confuse Buffy, Sarah and herself. Logically, one would say her thoughts and fears do get poured into Buffy. This is actually a good thing - the reason Buffy The Vampire Slayer works (or one of) is that the stories are so human and real life. Logically one would also suggest Xander is the voice of reason, the nagging in Noxon's head, telling her she should stop beating herself up and go after the guy.
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V true....that's a depressingly good point. And it goes right back to the physically-powerful-but-emotionally-crippled-strong-woman thing. Uch.
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They can do a "Buffy is emotionally crippled story" if for no other reason that it would take a person of inordinate mental strength to do what she does every night, and have her personal drama, and not wind up accruing lots of baggage. What they missed, IMHO, is losing sight of the character under all that baggage. That her baggage influenced how she expressed her feelings, but that her feelings were valid for her to have regardless of the baggage. (And to think, they'd done it so well with her before - see turning Xander down in S1.)
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That's a v good way of putting it -- it would've been cool if somehow they'd found a way to convey that kind of emotional complexity, rather than having Buffy shut down as a constant MO. The pushing-the-friends-away as a plot device got kinda tired what, the second, third, fourth time they tried it? (Although her acting-out got heaped with such scorn in "When She Was Bad," no wonder she shut down if that was the reaction she got....)
We just keep agreeing
And this week, Buffy learns as "Very Special Lesson" that it's important to include your friends! Or hug the guy who tried to rape you. Except that it's not as okay to tell them why you are upset or withdrawn in the first place, because since they love you, you owe them...
It's in character enough for her to shut down and close people out, and I don't have a particular problem with that. (See "the Wish") Somewhere along the line, ME started seeing that as the disease, rather than exploring it as the symptom of something else. Also, somewhere along the line ME lost sight of that it's okay for her not to be in love. Maybe it's somewhat justified for her to be withdrawn.
In addition to showing how we should sympathize with her depression, IMHO, they needed to do a bit more to build the case for why it might seem justified for her to close others out instead of just beating about how she's wrong for doing so.
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I really *like* Into the Woods, but at the same time it also enters the point in the story where it begins to take work to reconcile the story with itself. I think part of this is a reflection of the writer issues a couple of other people were talking about, but the way I always think about it is not writer POV so much as storyteller POV. When I watch Xander give his speech, I see it as the world through Xander's eyes, filtered through Xanderissues about who Buffy loves and is capable of loving, and the things that Xander is afraid of losing. From here on, the narrative POV which has always been Buffy's starts to pull away. We get bits of her, but she becomes more and more of a black box as time goes on.
Riley accuses Buffy of being closed-off when *he* is clearly the one who's been having issues. And I think he's right in thinking that Buffy doesn't love him the way he loves her (I think she does love him, but I don't think it's the sort of desperately powerful, heartrending love that he has for her, or the kind that he knows she felt for Angel.) The interesting thing to me is that in a way, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Riley builds a scenario in which the failure of their relationship is cast as Buffy's fault, and Xander feeds into it very persuasively. Buffy, I think, begins with the mixed feelings that anyone would have ("I'm hurt; how could you do this... was it me? Was I deficient? You bastard!") but as the story falls out, she comes down on the side of insecurity and blames herself. She may not have been as unavailable as Riley and Xander suggested up until that time, but afterwards she's well on her way to becoming so.
It's sad that way, because it sows the seeds of far worse things to come. I think that's why I like it, angst-whore that I am, because it's when everything really starts to come apart.
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The funny thing is that while Buffy pulls more away and becomes less emotionally accessible as the series goes on, the more emotionally accessible she is for me! Particulary depressed, withdrawn S6 Buffy. (fellow angst whore here) I think it is interesting that ITW really cements Buffy's feeling of herself as sort of worthless I guess -- Angel leaving was devastating, Parker was hurtful, but for those there was blame to spread around. This one, Xander made sure that she would just blame herself, despite the completely greyness of the situation.
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And while I guess you can say that it was just Xander's POV, the way the end of the episode played out made it seem as though the writers were trying to hammer in that Xander was right!
Like you, I was OK with the episode up until about the last ten minutes. Then came Xander's speech and it ruined the episode for me. At first I was just angry with Xander (and didn't Xnader's praise of Riley make it seem as if HE should be the one running after the chopper?) and his talk of Riley being The One. Huh? I thought it was apparent from Riley's first appearance that this was not going to be the long haul guy. Buffy longed for and needed to try a 'normal' relationship, but it was never going to work.
ME seemed to do a good job of setting up why. Buffy was not as open emotionally to Riley as he would have desired. We've seen Buffy's past. I neither blame her for being the way she is nor Riley for not being able to understand why. We also had Riley's insecurities at not being enough for her - a blow to his male pride. This was enough to break up the relationship, but throwing in the vamp whores seemed a way to give Buffy a concrete reason to end things. Yet, we get Xander's speech which, inexplicably, places the blame on Buffy. Sorry, but with all the other crap going on in her life I could understand her not being Ms There For Him.
Angel leaving was devastating, Parker was hurtful, but for those there was blame to spread around. This one, Xander made sure that she would just blame herself, despite the completely greyness of the situation.
Exactly. As others have already mentioned, there was a lot of selfishness in Xander's statements. He's the one that needed to see the relationship work. Not just because it reinforced his position in Buffy's life, it also gave him hope for he and Anya. But, for him to try to convince Buffy that she's wrong to end things with Riley and that she's the one who needs to change and take him back? No, that's wrong of him and ME for putting the words into his mouth. Maybe ascian is correct, maybe ME was feeding Buffy's self-doubt and insecurities in order to further what they had planned for her in season 6. In doing so, by having Buffy run after a man who betrayed her then gave her an ultimatum, it puts our heroine in a pathetic light.
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