Ok, pissed off now

[oyceter]

Yup, this is public; I am that pissed off.

I wasn't going to get involved, I swear I wasn't.

And then...

http://liviapenn.livejournal.com/473180.html?thread=6512732#t6512732

Because what the fucking fuck? Don't fucking throw the RAPE OF NANKING in my face when I am talking about white privilege. I just. I cannot type because WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK?! My grandfather was in the Chinese Navy then, fighting against the Japanese. I have friends with relatives who grew up not speaking Taiwanese because of the occupation. My family left the fucking country and moved to Taiwan because of that war. Don't throw that in my face as a counter to white privilege and just fucking assume I haven't heard of it for some reason; you have no fucking idea.

Comments by people not on my flist are screened; everyone else feel free to comment, but please note I am REALLY FUCKING PISSED OFF about this. Don't be stupid. I will repost asshattery under a filter and mock, and I don't fucking care if you somehow think that's unfair.

Comments

[brownbetty]

Oh what the hell.

That post of Livia's has me making a private filtered list of people whom I can no longer assume are fundamentally decent human beings when it carries any cost to themselves. Happily, the list is still smallish. Sadly, I anticipate growth.

[oyceter]

OMG YES. Like it takes so much effort to change a word that you're happier being racist? *headdesk* I've also started reading through some more comments and posted and am completely appalled by how people are criticizing zvi (!!!!!!). For not being polite! For being too aggressive! I am speechless.

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

I never understand (white) people's obsession with how racist East asians are.

Anytime I mention wanting to go to China/Japan/S. Korea/E.Asia it's the same reaction. No! You'll be two feet taller than everyone else and/or they're incredibly racist!

I love it when white people think they can tell you all there is to know about racism. Because racism is such an alien concept to me, having died out in the UK sometime in 1973.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I never understand (white) people's obsession with how racist East asians are.

"They do it too, so it's not so bad when we do it." And I think the travel reaction is also part of the same sort of fear comes with homophobia-- not wanting to be treated the way you've treated people as a matter of course.

Following links and found this, hope you don't mind, oyceter.

[ginny-t.livejournal.com]

*shrug* Anyone dumb enough to come here and be stupid deserves a good mocking.

*pets* You were surprisingly polite in your reply. *praises*

[oyceter]

Heee, thank you.

I just... GAAAAAH!

[littlebutfierce]

That's really fucking annoying. White folks love to throw in the "POCs can be racist too, so I'm not going to listen to you when you talk about white people being racist, cuz we're all racist! Nyah nyah!" stuff. Ugh.

[littlebutfierce]

Ugh, I went back & read the whole thread that guy started. Headdesking violently now, yay.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Reading that has left me with deep fury.

Three times I started typing...

And then I realized he would not understand no matter what.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Now I'm just making an example of him... (http://liviapenn.livejournal.com/473180.html?thread=6512732#t6512732)

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

This whole thing has left me going, WTF, but I think that this comment made to you goes into a realm beyond WTF.

[oyceter]

OMG I am still SO PISSED OFF!

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

i know seth in person, and, well, he's very well meaning.

please note i am not saying he's thought things through or that he's good at execution. this is me not saying those things.

he's not purposefully an idiot; he's just an idiot.

this does not make it particularly better, i understand, and i do not in any way mean to excuse his behavior.

[oyceter]

Honestly, I don't care at all if he's well meaning or not, particularly at this point. And I don't care if he's purposefully an idiot or not; imo, after a lot of people tried to explain things on Livia's LJ, he wasn't listening, which makes his actions purposeful and deliberately harmful. It's one thing to be well meaning and make mistakes. But if you do that and people let you know that you are making a mistake and using an argument commonly used by others to shut down discussions of racism, continuing to use that argument is no longer making a well meaning mistake, it is deliberate.

I'm sorry, I'm not pissed off at you. But I am pissed off at how many people keep using the "well meaning" or "ignorance" excuse, the mods of the comm in question included. But frankly, it's not that hard to get educated about Racism 101, and even if it's his first time seeing an argument like this in fandom ... that's his privilege. Because there is a point after which good intentions mean absolutely nothing, and that's when people point out something is either flat out wrong or could be construed as a racist argument. After that, someone can have all the good intentions they want, but I don't care, because it's their actions that count, and I don't hold much by their good intentions when they're deliberately acting stupid.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

Ummmm, yeah. Just, yeah. The logical fallacy is formally called tu quoque, which is Latin for "I know you are but what am I?", and is defined as a situation where the arguer attempts to distract from the weaknesses in his argument by noticing non-germane faults in his interlocutor.

Also known as: FAIL AT RHETORIC.

I've had cause to note that fallacy twice today, and am beginning to wonder if it holds a special place in the hearts of racism-deniers. (Actually, probably deniers of anything, but racism deniers use it with such obnoxious panache.) There's something about saying, "other people do it too" that provides such a balm for the conscience that can't bear to be troubled.

Which is also FAIL AT LIFE, as you have noted.

am beginning to wonder if it holds a special place in the hearts of racism-deniers.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Of course it does.

Because if any living person of color, anywhere, in any country, has ever done something racist, then NOTHING ANY WHITE PERSON EVER DOES COUNTS.

Al Sharpton gave us whiteys a free pass forever. So, apparently, did Emperor Hirohito.

[the_rck]

I'm sorry you got hit by such offensive idiocy. Beyond that... I have no words.

[oyceter]

OMG I KNOW! I am still raving mad!

[coniraya.livejournal.com]

AUUGH! I hate everyone right now. Also the idea that prejudice or racism within PoC groups somehow negates the White Heteronormative Racist Patriarchy we live in is such deep deep bullshit.

[oyceter]

OMG! I am so angry! I am SO ANGRY!

Like, what gives him the right to go in and make pronouncements on this? And to be so condescending about it? Especially when he seems to have absolutely no depth of knowledge about the issues at all! GAH!

[keilexandra]

....wow. Just, wow. How idiotic can people be? (Rhetorical question, though feel free to answer in rant.)

[oyceter]

OH MY GOD! I keep ranting and I am still mad! GAH!

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

Good luck with being okay in response to that.

...I'm thinking his answer was designed to infuriate as well as derail. But I'm cynical. And he seemed to be there just to make a position statement rather than dialogue.

[oyceter]

OMG! I think he thought I didn't know what I was talking about, and honestly, his bullshit about Japan is just that. Oh, woe, white man was discriminated against in Japan! That means he knows all about racism in Asia! And manages to talk about it without ever mentioning Western imperialism in Asia! Way to use a smokescreen!

[marzipan-pig.livejournal.com]

I wonder if there is a way to say "Right, whoever has the power tends to use it poorly, that's what we are working on challenging here"? (I mean, a way that would be heard). It's the kind of thing I would work on with another white person I knew in person, but on the internet and with a stranger it's usually too much for me to take on

[oyceter]

sometimes? Honestly, this guy just kept going and going and being willfully oblivious in the comments. I don't think he would have heard anything.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

I had to throw up my hands in disgust and walk away.

You know, until I hung out with you, I never noticed how many people apply the reflex defense of "This makes me feel bad, therefore YOU ARE EVIL!!!!". It's ubiquitous, isn't it? So much easier to say "Well, you're just as bad!" than to say "Gosh, that sucks, and I'm sometimes complicit in it."

[oyceter]

It is SO ubiquitous! Of course, it gets a little more sophisticated (witness! Panelist reactions to Romance of the Revolution debate!) in which the people will say they didn't mean it, they meant something else, you are misreading them. Right now I am so pissed off that I do not care about intentions or misreadings; I care about what you do when you're called on it. (them you, not you you)

Also, random gold star for you! ;)

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

I'm waiting for someone to adapt the "They're not real Jews, they're Khazars -- and therefore I'm not an anti-Semite" defence to a defence of racism.

Tangent: There are those who are quite willing to agree that there's white racism and it's a bad thing -- but, of course, all white racists are members of groups they don't belong to; and which they look down upon.

[oyceter]

Of course it's never them, oh no, never! They're speaking out against racism too! Never mind that it always just happens to be when there's a perceived slight against white people by POC...

[seaya.livejournal.com]

I saw that b.s.

Ugh.

I have nothing constructive to add, instead I'll just say that you showed incredible restraint.

[oyceter]

No restraint here, heh. Have been frothing at mouth for hours, thanks to the stupid.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

seriously that shit worked my last angry negro nerve. the fuck?

i agree w/ shewhohashope about how its fascinating to see white folks fixate on racism in asia/asian history.

I will repost asshattery under a filter and mock, and I don't fucking care if you somehow think that's unfair.

now that's censhorship. i think you should unscreen asshattery and let us have at it. but you know, i'm mean and hard that way.

[oyceter]

i think you should unscreen asshattery and let us have at it. but you know, i'm mean and hard that way.

I am so tempted (thankfully none yet), except then I would probably end up reading it and shooting my blood pressure through the roof!

So posting on the Japan Law of Racism tomorrow.

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

I'll be honest, I've never consciously heard of the Rape of Nanking. Asian history (like most history not directly related to the Caribbean which was strictly reinforced) tends to get all jumbled in my head until I get a history book out and look.

But I can appreciate the anger.

I can remember the first time I learned that blacks had slaves in Africa. It was because a white history teacher in Florida was talking about slavery and how econimically good it was for America and how the ending of the slave trade crippled America.

And I was 13. And all 'WTF'.

I had to go home and ask my mom. And she told me about how in America there was chattel slavery and slaves were objects like chairs. When I'd grown up in the Caribbean where because the islands were small and intermingling occured, things were a bit like America's New Orleans.

I'm glad you could smack him right in the face with knowing the true history.

And as the born citizen of a former British colony, I'm all with you on how much colonialism and the East Indies Companies just messed with everything.

[oyceter]

I'll be honest, I've never consciously heard of the Rape of Nanking.

I suspect most people haven't before Irish Chang wrote her book, and I'm pretty sure it's not a subject commonly taught in schools. I didn't actually know that many details about exactly what happened, just that it was horrible, until I read the book in college and was sickened.

But yeah. I just... omg! He does not get to say that to me. Just. Does not.

[insaneneko.livejournal.com]

That he went on and on and on insisting that he was RIGHT and ignoring everyone who replied to him was even more galling than that initial condescending red herring comment. I can't help but heap even more contempt on him for of course not replying to your comment.

[oyceter]

OMG I know. I mean, I am glad he didn't reply to mine because unless it had been an apology, I would have bitten his head off.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

...the fuck?

I do not get people. I haven't linked this discussion because fandom isn't really my baliwick, but I've been following it, and...

the FUCK?

[oyceter]

OMG I KNOW! That is still my reaction!

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

You know what, I have to go back and say soemthing else, even--that the equation of atrocities of conquest, war atrocities, whether racially motivated or not, in a war in which ethnic cleansing was a *motivating goal* of the Aryan side of the conflict...

Oh, for fuck's sake. I'm out of words. Do I have to be caucasian anymore? Because I don't want to be in these people's club.

[oyceter]

Ugh. I know! I just... gah! And I just! History! Causation! Colonialism! *flails for words*

(And I so do not equate causation and context with it being OK for Japanese colonization. But just! Not a good defense for white privilege at all!)

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

@!@%$@4EVA!1!! is my new tag meaning "I am reduced to *hitting my keyboard and producing an incoherent mess of keystrokes to represent my combination of incredulity and extreme rage *forever*." "My eyes roll forever" has a better ring, I know, but it is just not sufficient for some cases.

[oyceter]

I heart your new tag!

[spoggly.livejournal.com]

Hi - you don't actually know me, but I've started reading your livejournal.* I'd just like to say - OMGWTF? That person's response is so incredibly ignorant and offensive that it blew my mind a tiny bit, if only because it came in a place where everyone else is discussing racism respectfully, like whoah. Way to not only MISS THE POINT, guy, but think of one of the most offensive defenses of white privilege to throw out there. Your response was amazing.



*I realized that sounds insanely creepy, but I'm not actually stalking you - I just started reading your posts on racism and fandom and thought they were really great. *is socially awkward*

[oyceter]

Hi! I'm glad you commented and that you liked some of my posts!

OMG I hate that guy so much. Because argh!

[oracne.livejournal.com]

Way to ROAR!

[oyceter]

Thank you!

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

//stunned

Holy shit.

Kudos to you for speaking up eloquently and forcefully.

[oyceter]

Gah! I know! I am still stunned.