Angel 5x18 Origin (more thoughts)

[oyceter]

I find it interesting that most people are thinking of Gunn's refusal of Hamilton's deal as the high road. I mean, obviously I get that refusing another deal with the Senior Partners is a good thing, but I was seeing so many parallels between Angel's speech to Wes in the beginning of the episode ("Fred's dead. You're alive. Start acting like it."), with Wes burying himself in a room with Illyria and lots and lots of alcohol. Gunn's not living. Gunn is doing the Groundhog Day thing, he's literally standing still in time. Not only that, but he doesn't even have the memories of signing the contract, he doesn't know what he's suffering for.

I think the thing that hurts the most is that: does Gunn think this is the only way he can atone, that he can make it better? Does he think so little of himself that the best way to make it up to the Fang Gang is to completely remove himself from the picture?

Comments

[gwynnega]

I think Gunn figured he had two choices: 1) deal with the Senior Partners again and potentially do more harm and 2) be stuck there in the basement but not inadvertantly hurt anybody. Both are lousy options, but he chose the one he thought, on a practical level, would do the least harm to others.

[oyceter]

It's true -- it's just that my brain immediately jumped from Wes being disconnected from the world and that being a bad thing to Angel to Gunn being disconnected to the world (and subsequently, a bad thing for Angel). I think I wasn't thinking of him accepting the SP's offer as the SP's offer per se, I was more in the mind set of him not accepting something that would put him back in the world.

I also find I tend to have a rather coldly pragmatic view of the noble gesture at times...

[minnow1212.livejournal.com]

I thought Gunn's choice was problematic last week, because it doesn't allow for the chance of mercy or an end to atonement . It's all about self-punishment, and less about putting good into the world. This week, though, I don't have as much of a problem with him choosing to deny another deal this week, because of what the possible consequences could be. Now if Angel comes to get him out (which Angel had better) and Gunn still chooses to wallow in pain and punishment, then I'll have a huge problem.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I agree (http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurashapiro/55185.html?thread=591505#t591505). With both parts.

I happen to think that atonement and even guilt are useful or even just inevitable parts of the process of ... I don't even know what to call it. Reformation, rehabilitation, doing better next time. Just like mourning is an inevitable part of loss. As mourning is unhealthy when it's prolonged into depression, guilt/atonement is unhealthy when it becomes more focused on suffering punishment than making amends; but fandom in general seems to have acquired an automatic distaste for feeling bad about your misdeeds (except for Buffy, who apparently never feels bad *enough*) which I think is unwarranted and unrealistic.

Gunn's action last week was partly -- a very little part -- about getting Lindsey out so Angel could do more good in the world, and for that he gets credit in my book. But the rest of it was about punishing himself for Fred's death, and although I sympathize with the impulse, he doesn't get Hero Points for it.

This week -- he can tell from the setup that he's being asked to do something to harm Angel, and the only benefit is to him personally. He's being offered power in exchange for favors to Wolfram & Hart -- which is the same deal he took in "Home" and brokered for himself again in S5, and now he knows better.