oyceter | Tatum, Beverly Daniel - Can We Talk about Race?

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Tatum, Beverly Daniel - Can We Talk about Race?

(subtitle: And Other Conversations in an Era of School Resegregation)

Tatum's newest book is based off a series of talks she gave for "Race, Education, and Democracy," a program of lectures and books driven by Beacon Press and Simmons College. As such, the book is shorter than her Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together?.

As the title notes, the book is largely about race and the US education system. Tatum is particularly concerned with the resegregation of schools because of several rulings weakening Brown vs. Board, the continuing segregation of neighborhoods, and other such factors. This is less Racism 101, unlike her previous book, and more focused; I enjoyed being able to get a closer look at a specific racially-related problem.

I like how Tatum focuses both on what individuals (white and POC) can do to combat racism in schools and on how to implement systemic change; both are important. She writes about the importance of acceptance for kids of color; not just "Oh, we are color blind!," but the need for people to see themselves positively represented in the curriculum and in the power structure of schools. She talks about the class divide that often goes with the racial divide and strategies for lessening the achievement gap between white students and students of color, and she also addresses the need for affirmative action and the importance of diversity.

Much of the book feels like it's about K-12 education, though Tatum addresses higher education as well, particularly the battle to keep affirmative action. But the section that I found most relevant on a personal level was her chapter on interracial relationships.

She quotes David Mura's essay "Secret Colors" in Some of My Best Friends: Writings on Interracial Friendships (ed. Emily Bernard):

Yes interracial friendships with whites are possible. Certainly they are possible if the person of color thinks of himself as white or desires to be thought of as white -- that is, if the person of color forces from his consciousness the differences in his experience of race [...]. Such friendships are also possible if race is never discussed as part of the relationship [...]. In such instances, the person of color might be aware of differences and difficulties due to racial issues, but remains silent about them. Instead, the person of color suppresses his true feelings and presents a version of himself he thinks will please, or at least not trouble, his white friend.

Under such conditions, friendship is possible: but we might ask then: What kind of friendship is that?

I winced, recognizing quite a few interracial friendships I had with whites. (Also, I need to pick up that book.) I think the issues of race and education will be very relevant to me when I go back to school, but the issue of interracial friendships will always be there, unless I move back to Taiwan and quit LJ or something drastic like that.

Tatum talks in particular about lethal silence, when a POC is afraid to voice her thoughts on race and instead thinks "Note to self: do not talk to this person about anything I find important," and on the effort it takes to be honest about race. And in case it looks like the silence and the burden is on the POC, Tatum makes it very clear that deep friendships between POC and white people can only happen if the white person has done work thinking about her own whiteness and privilege. If not, the POC either must hide part of herself, reveal that part and be in constant conflict, or be an educator on racial issues, and in all cases, the relationship is then unequal. They can still be friends, but it will by necessity be in a more limited sense.

Anyhow, I highly recommend this, though people unfamiliar with Anti-Racism 101 may want to start with Tatum's other book first. Tatum is clear-sighted and sympathetic, but never underestimates the problems we all face. Reading her always makes me feel like things are difficult, but that there is hope and the potential for progress.

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minnow1212's review

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"Note to self: do not talk to this person about anything I find important"

I will think about this some more.

Sadly, I do this a lot, which really limits a relationship. It's either that, or "Note to self: this person needs much race-related education," and then I have to decide if the person will even listen, if I am too tired to talk about race (which, often, I am), and etc. It is... very tiring.

When I posted in my own LJ last year of making a conscious decision about not talking to white people about certain things (i.e. race 'stuff'), I know that definitely rubbed people the wrong way and at the same time I sat there thinking, "hey, I want to keep my pressure down and I'm not in the mood to teach you."

Yes, exactly! Even here on my LJ, where I've made a conscious decision to continue engaging with white people about race (which no POC should feel pressured to do), I get so, so, so tired saying the same thing all the time. And there's all this mental preparation involved when I do post on race, and it's tiring, and I think a lot of times, people not educated on anti-racism don't grok that, and thereby don't grok why someone would choose to not keep being tired out and enraged, grrrrr. Because really, who wants to keep banging their head against a brick wall?

And I bet you (mpig) knew I was going to be thinking about that one, too.

Huh. Did I cluelessly hit on something in particular with that?

I think we both have our own issues about it, and probably a good idea about what the other's are likely to be. :) Sorry to talk past you. Mine is that I have a really hard time talking to Wim about gender stuff, and he really doesn't see his own privilege. Ms. Marzipan has had similar conversations with him, though I think she's talking about something(s) of her own.

*nods* Gotcha, and no worries. Just wanted to make sure I hadn't accidentally rubbed on someone's sore spots!

I've had similar problems (both with race and gender) with friends and my ex, though of course my way of dealing with it is not necessarily optimal for anyone else!

I'll have to check this out.

A lot of my friends are past the point where we want tons of superficial connections, and what we need are deeper connections. Sometimes folks see it as intolerance, when it's basically the fact that you don't want to have to be on guard and playing the role of race educator when you're trying to hang out and have fun.

Sometimes folks see it as intolerance, when it's basically the fact that you don't want to have to be on guard and playing the role of race educator when you're trying to hang out and have fun.

Yes, exactly!

There's a limited amount of energy I have, and some days (a lot of days) I'm just tired and don't want to go through Anti-Racism 101 (or Feminism 101) for the six billionth time. And because so much of how I interact with the world and media and books and such has to do with race, not talking about it means curtailing a LOT of what goes on in my head.

I do it on my blog because I can sort of control discourse and conversations, but sometimes, yeah... I just want to hang out and have fun. And I can't do that if I'm constantly stressing about the possibility of encountering a racist joke or white defensiveness.

Right, and you can have those deep conversations and still have fun, but not when you're getting slapped upside the head with privilege. Friendship is built on respect and trust and when you have privilege issues, you don't get either.

Yeah! And I'm not even saying that my friends have to agree with me, because they don't, and I've had a lot of good conversations with white friends on racism and trying to figure out our respective reactions to a certain post or event or something and disagreeing with each other. But under that, there's still mutual respect and the willingness to listen, and if someone hasn't worked on their own privilege or defensiveness, how can they listen to me while throwing up defensive shields at the same time?

And, of course, there is the flip side: how can I respect and listen to them when I see that?

great, meaty post. thank you
As a white American male (I didn't do it on purpose, honest), I feel self-conscious about commenting . . . while as a Jew, the universal outsider, I'm curious about what we might share or have to learn from each other.

But one specific bit piqued my curiosity.
" . . unless I move back to Taiwan . . . " When you're in Taiwan, how much are you "an American"? I'm a pretty non-typical American (INMSHO), but when I go to a really different country, I'm pretty American.
I mean, I didn't think Taiwan had deep-fried Twinkies, and almost certainly not beignets.

When you're in Taiwan, how much are you "an American"?

A lot, though obviously less so than a non-Chinese person, and slightly less-so than an ABC. Because I went to a bilingual school, my Chinese still has a really bad accent, so basically any time I talk, people ask me if I live in America. Sometimes people can tell by how I'm dressed as well.

Of course, it's ironic because in the US, I'm always feeling out of place for having grown up elsewhere, from the small details (not having watched the same TV growing up) to the large (a different take on intl. politics, frex).

Under such conditions, friendship is possible: but we might ask then: What kind of friendship is that?

The kind where you realize someone else's fangirl squee is much more important than how you feel about people of color in scifi as a poc yourself and-- whoops, sorry. never mind. *giggle*

If not, the POC either must hide part of herself, reveal that part and be in constant conflict, or be an educator on racial issues, and in all cases, the relationship is then unequal.

Gee. This sure sounds familiar...

thx for posting.

The kind where you realize someone else's fangirl squee is much more important than how you feel about people of color in scifi as a poc yourself and-- whoops, sorry. never mind.

So true! Seriously, so many of the discussions on race in fandom have made me distrust a lot more people than I did going into fandom.

Yep, pretty much. Thank god for deadbro and other poc maintained spaces...

Thanks for this review - it sounds like a book I'm going to really want to read. (Also, geekily, I ♥ Beacon Press)

deep friendships between POC and white people can only happen if the white person has done work thinking about her own whiteness and privilege

I'm white, and that resonates powerfully with me. Especially when I compare the friendships I have now with the friendships I had with the very few POC at my high school in Scotland, when we were effectively taught that it was wrong to ever mention race and I hadn't learned to think about it differently yet - no wonder I was always frustrated that certain friendships couldn't seem to get beyond a superficial level. (Not that I'm trying to paint myself as little miss perfect white person - it's still hard work to recognise different forms of privilege and to learn on an intimate level what it means not to have it, and my desire to start educating myself was definitely influenced strongly by friendships I was developing with politically conscious POC who made it clear what was necessary.)

Anyway, if enough educators would read books like this it would give me hope that the total utter silence around race I experienced in school (which would have been pretty different in the US, I expect) can be addressed.

Very yes to the problems of "colorblindness," which usually ends up being "ignoring power differentials and how race deeply affects people."

Tatum has a passionate intro. to this book in which she's basically asking people if we can talk about race, because clearly it is a huge factor in education, and continuing silence on the matter really doesn't help (to understate!). And she's sort of asking, "Can we talk about race in a thoughtful and nuanced manner?" as well.

Sounds interesting, but question: is Tatum for or against affirmative action? Your review can be interpreted eitehr way. I'm against affirmative action because it doesn't really balance race--it only tries to balance the black-white continuum and is unfair to other POC. I tend to avoid anti-racism books because I've had a lot of bad experiences with the author only thinking about the most obvious racial issue (i.e. African-Americans).

She is for affirmative action, as am I. Her previous book has more on other races; here, she notes in the introduction that she focuses mostly on blacks and Hispanics because they are the ones most severely affected by these issues. In general, I think she does think about all races; her previous book has sections for most races as well as for multi-racial people.

I'm against affirmative action because it doesn't really balance race--it only tries to balance the black-white continuum and is unfair to other POC.

*nods* I agree that this often happens, though I tend to attribute this more to a faulty implementation of affirmative action rather than to affirmative action itself. I.e. there is effectively a "POC quota" within which POC must compete against each other, when in reality, the struggle should be against things like legacy admissions, which is effectively white affirmative action (because who in the past has generally had the money and the status to get into universities?).

And I don't know much, but just from casual reading, it feels like many court cases about affirmative action have continued to pit POC against each other (Asians against blacks and Hispanics, usually). I don't know if you've read it, but I think Frank Wu's Yellow has a really good chapter specifically on affirmative action and Asians.

Also, I agree with your criticism that a lot of anti-racism tends to focus on black-white relationships. On the one hand, I see why this is so, because blacks have historically been the most severely affected by racism. On the other hand, I think all allies are important and naturally want to see Asian and other issues addressed as well.

I've found that usually within the anti-racism blogosphere, people do realize that there are a lot of different fronts to fight racism; some people choose to concentrate on a specific front, but link back to others, or have other methods. And there's a whole bunch of women of color in feminist literature that I still have to read that acknowledges the nuances in anti-racism dialogue.

That's exactly the problem I have with affirmative action--especially in colleges, it tends to have the practical effect of shooing-in African-Americans and disqualifying many Asian people because they have to compete directly (and IMHO unfairly) against all the thousands of other Asian people. The various University of California campuses are a prime example--they eliminated affirmative action, and as CA tends to be very Asian-heavy in population, the result is a college comprised of a LOT of Asians. Bad or good? The balance is off, but in terms of POC vs. white, it's wonderful.

But I don't know much at all about anti-racism and still need to do tons more reading. Many thanks for the book rec!

*nods* From the few anti-racism books I've read, most of the authors do talk about affirmative action, and usually in a way that is inclusive of all POC.

I am happy about the rise of the Asian population in the CA schools, but I think there's also been a drop in the black and Hispanic populations, which I find troublesome.

Thanks for the book rec.

I came here by way of

yelson.

It's that fatigue...it's the fatigue that gets me. I find that even looking at race-interactions (Negative one) with white folk-- which seems like every time I run into white defensiveness when I'm busy being myself-- I just try to keep it moving.

After that SGA debacle...I deeply re-evaluated who I engaged in discussions about race and why. I don't have these discussions in rl unless you're in my rl trust filter. I too find the discourse is more under my control in lj.

Hi!

Oh man, the fatigue. My personal version of the SGA debacle was the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of DOOM and PotC2, as I didn't know as many people in SGA. But yes to the need to re-evaluate, and I found myself losing a lot of respect for people I had previously liked a lot, which was sad.

I'm really glad that so far this year, the discussion on my LJ has been a lot less insane than it was last year, but I'm sure part of that is just that most of the people commenting are fairly familiar with me and because I haven't been metafandomed yet.

But yeah. Even when the discussions aren't happening on my LJ, it's just so tiring and disheartening to see the same old straw man arguments over and over and over.

>Even when the discussions aren't happening on my LJ, it's just so tiring and disheartening to see the same old straw man arguments over and over and over.

Have you thought about (or have you, and I just don't know about it) putting together a sort of FAQ-and-reference-list? Because I totally get the sense of fatigue and just not wanting to talk about it any further, etc., and at the same time, I think, "But I want to be taught! And it would help to know where to start!"

Of course, you're not responsible for doing the teaching, and I don't mean to imply that you are. Just wondering if something like that might be a useful medium?

I have! I think

veejane offered to write one up for IBARW, though I should get started on IBARW content too.

Right now I am wishing that something like the Feminism 101 blog will magically appear for anti-racism to consolidate links and be a handy reference place, but so far it has not, and I have yet to embark on something that ambitious (maybe someday when I don't have job + class going on)...

Your posts on race always make me think loads, but then I flail for how to put those thoughts into words. I just don't know enough to compare and contrast the US and UK situations, and I'm never entirely sure that I'm qualified to talk about a lot of UK stuff, either inside or outside fandom.

So I'll just keep reading and thinking, and will squee muchly if Martha gets to do the cool stuff I'm hoping for in the Dr Who season finale.

If Lewis Hamilton wins the F1 World Championship, you may well hear me squeeing from where you are.

I need to read a lot more about intl. race relations...

From a random LJ comment elsewhere and from my very sketchy knowledge, I think UK race issues have to deal a lot more with the aftermath of British imperialism and colonialism, but that is just me making broad and unsubstantiated generalizations.

And I figure there is a different dynamic with Indians (Asian Indians, not Native Americans), given imperialism, and probably Muslims?, but again, broad and unsubstantiated generalizations from me.

*nods*

Post-colonialism still plays a big part in the background to some issues. Which kind of plays into the dynamics with the Indian and Pakistani communities (and Bangladeshi, etc, although the smaller groups get mentioned less).

Plus there seems increasingly to be tensions relating to movement within Europe -- people I would never have expected to hear racism or nationalism from complaining about the influx of Italians/Greeks/Eastern Europeans/whatever into 'their' town.

hello! i'm here from

yeloson's LJ. thanks for the review; i love tatum's work.

that quoted paragraph really hits home, doesn't it? it's something i've yet to see the average white person understand... that censoring that POC have to do in order to be friends with most white people.

my circle has shifted so much as i've become more honest about race and racism and facing how i am affected by it all. i have very few white friends, although i like white people (individually) just fine in most cases. but i'm not interested in telling any of them my life story--i'm familiar with the blank looks and offensive "questions" and defensive "...but not all white people--!"

Hi!

Oh man, I winced when I read that paragraph, especially the last sentence. Because I've been there so many times, and a lot of those times, I had myself convinced that it was a problem with me.

It's been really interesting watching my own circle shift in the past year when I started thinking about race more consciously; I suspect it'll shift even more as I go on. Because I need to be able to talk about all parts of my life, and this is a big part of it.

*nodding*

exactly. everything sort of happened at once for me--or all along a continuous path for several years, really--where i started being more real about everything and asking for more from the people i spent time with. the biggest payoff has been finding friends--and a partner, with whom i can talk about all parts of myself--ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, abuse survival, writing, whatever! i never had that before. i guess i thought it was normal to have to censor myself so much, customizing "me" to whomever i was around. it feels very freeing to not have to do that.

Hi

A fantastic site, and brilliant effort. A great piece of work. Best regards!

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Tatum, Beverly Daniel - Can We Talk about Race?

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