oyceter | Intl. Saiyuki Week - Nataku and Robots in Anime and Manga

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Intl. Saiyuki Week - Nataku and Robots in Anime and Manga

So I am crazy and decided I wanted to post something Saiyuki every day. I also finally caved and created a separate Memories category just for Saiyuki, since it looks like there will be much content on it.

I will also be posting non-Saiyuki content, I swear, for those of you completely bored by the manga talk and wondering what crack I'm now on.

Who's linking to all the Intl. Saiyuki Week posts? I know

telophase and

rachelmanija are (here and here)... anyone else? Links in comments incredibly welcome!

Spoilers for Gaiden up till vol. 2!

Anyhow, I remembered there was nifty comment thread in which I realized that I am quite probably the only person who saw Nataku in Gaiden and immediately thought, "Robot!"

Of course, instead of constructing a thorough and well-thought-out argument, I will instead do bullet points because I am tired.

1. Obvious Nataku is not a robot in the traditional sense, since he is flesh and blood, as was so gorily illustrated when he turned his own blade on himself. He's also the cross between god and youkai (I think...?), so again, flesh and blood. There's also the born in a vat of blood and being a squalling baby growing up imagery. So on one hand, he's very tied to blood and assorted other biological things related largely to death and... more blood.

2. On the other hand, in a Minekura drawing of Nataku with some of his robes off (get your mind out of the gutter!), the joints in his shoulder and elbow and wrist look extreme doll-like or robotic; they're not human, not flesh on bone. They look like mechanical joints. Also, when Minekura first mentions youkai-human cross-breeding in Saiyuki, there's an image of a flesh-and-blood human hand grasping a youkai hand dissolving into machinery. Um. Or it may be the opposite. I don't remember, but I'll check when I get home. Other youkai = machine imagery includes Kougaiji's mother bound up in some ginormous doomsday cryogenic thing with loads and loads of wires coming out (or in) her, a la CLAMP. So I figure it's a stretch, but you could probably connect this with Nataku being the forbidden union of god and youkai.

3. There's also the vast sci-fi anime tradition of robots and cyborgs and the definitions of self, identity and humanity. And by "vast," I mean the few somewhat seminal apocalyptic sci-fi anime that I've seen, and by "seminal," I mean seminal as defined by American scholarship on anime and my own personal experiences with the anime club. Namely (listed from oldest to most recent):

Atom Boy/Tetsuwan Atomu (Osamu Tezuka), in which there is a robot boy created by someone, I think in memory of his dead son, and I would say more about this except I haven't seen it. So, in conclusion: robot! Possibly identity and human nature and people controlling robot boy as well?

Ghost in the Shell, in which the cyborg heroine questions if she is real or not, given that someone created her, along with a Puppet Master overtaking all the cyborg minds (I think. It's been a while)

Neon Genesis Evangelion, in which a character Rei is robotic and questions who she is, given that she is a clone. In keeping with tradition, Rei is a clone of her creator's dead wife. She is also a very efficient mecha pilot and thus, a killer

X (manga by CLAMP), in which there is a robot/cyborg named Nataku, who was made to resemble his creator's dead son. Also a killer and rather emotionless at first, only to find human connection later on (this may be chronologically before Evangelion, but I think they're around the same time period

Metropolis (written by Osamu Tezuka, directed by Rin Taro and screenplay by Otomo Katsuhiro), in which there is a robot girl created by someone to resemble his dead daughter. I think she ends up being a killing machine as well

There's probably more, but I don't watch much sci-fi anime. I could probably also throw in the Terminator movies and Blade Runner and the new Battlestar Galactica, except they aren't anime and I don't know how much it maps onto the genre of sci-fi robot anime questioning what it means to be human. Hrm, although I think the imagery is very similar, with the deceptive layer of human-looking flesh over robot parts or a robot brain.

4. I do realize that in general while anime talks about robots, it seems to be equivalent to "cyborg." Unfortunately, it's been so long since I've seen any of these that I don't know about the precise language used. The reviews for Metropolis all seem very adamant that the robot girl is indeed a robot though. Rei is also a clone and not a robot, but I just tossed her in because the image of her floating in a vat of liquid is very similar to that of the two Natakus and the opening sequence of Ghost in the Shell. The cloning thing in Evangelion is also very connected to machinery and the combination of machinery and flesh -- the Eva mechas are clones of angels (or Adam), only with mechanical armor slapped on top to control them. Rei's body parts are interchangeable, like a machine's, and she is similarly replacable. All the non-mecha robots that really question their identity that I know of look just like humans, and that seems to be the key differentiator. Otherwise, they're just mecha and there's no discussion of humanity or identity or memory or all that fun stuff. This all throws me back to the flesh/machine imagery of a human/youkai relationship and the flesh/machine imagery of Nataku being born out of a giant vat of liquid with wires everywhere (seemingly common imagery, see Ghost and X and Evangelion).

5. All these examples grow to be more human (I think) via human connections, particularly the ones who start out as killing machines (Rei, X-Nataku, Ghost-girl I think). Ergo, Nataku's friendship with Goku. While Goku is learning about friendship as well, I think the key part to theirs is that Goku is very human and very warm, while Nataku is somewhat confused about someone caring about him. And, of course, there's the whole killing machine aspect in being Toushin Taishi, along with emotional deadness and a creator that ends up using him instead of parenting him.

6. Holes in the argument include: why robot? Obviously doll imagery or even cyborg imagery (if one argues cyborgs aren't robots) works as well, as does the imagery of golems and puppets. This is particularly true when there isn't anything overtly mechanical in nature about Nataku. I have no idea why I associate the particular theme of questioning what makes people human and how people become more human and learn to feel with robots, but I do. Also, there seems to be something with the whole wire and vats of liquid that just scream "robot" to me. Odd.

Also: what of Goku? He's itan like Nataku, but he's Nataku's opposite in that he's sunny and bright and welcoming with a killer hidden inside. And it's quite clear that his killer side isn't mechanical; despite the youkai-human interbreeding being pictures as machine/flesh, I'd argue that Hakkai, Gojyo and Goku are very much of the flesh and there's none of that wire imagery and giant vat of liquid imagery that there is elsewhere.

In conclusion, I should watch more robot anime.

Except I don't really want to.

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Hmm, I had a similiar thought of Nataku being a robot or at least robot-like, largely from the "birth" picture and the picture of him from behind with his robes mostly off (and though you say "get your mind out of the gutter," it might be worth noting that he's talking about his relationship with his father and "I convince myself this is love" which I've seen other people remark on also as possibly implying sexual abuse, but that's a whole other tangent). Um, where was I?

Oh yeah, I think of Nataku being cyborg or robot-like in the sense of being made from components, which can be seen in that robes-off picture, but also when it's said that he's the product of god and youkai -- if it was meant that he came from god and youkai interbreeding, maybe he could have been born normally, but he wasn't. (Not, to say he couldn't be a test tube- conceived and machine-incubated baby, but bear with me...)

And then I thought about how the armies had such a hard time fighting all the youkai, such that at least one of the heavenly soldiers even died (Tenpou reports "I let one of men die once" when explaining the risking his own life to Kenren.) So... what if Nataku made from machine parts powered by organs harvested from *killed* youkai and kami instead of being the product of interbreeding?

There's also the bit when Li Touten picks up Nataku's body after the attempted-suicide and says something like "I can still use this" which emphasizes the object rather than creature -ness of his nature, I think... it makes more sense to think of parts of a machine still being useful when the whole is too damaged to function because the pieces can go into building a new one, compared to a natural living body (organ donation or harvesting notwithstanding).

I have no idea how plausible it all is, but I do find it interesting to speculate. I love how it's so open to interpretation, one of those things where if we could ask "does it mean a, or b, or c?" the answer might be "yes!"

I'm also not in a very coherent frame of mind tonight, but can't resist a Gaiden discussion, so I hope I'm making sense. *^_^*

Ohh yes. Neat. Harvested youkai (though we don't know how many youkai kings behave badly enough for Heaven to go after them, and I got the suggestion that Tenpou's subordinate was killed by a beast) or dead celestials used to make Natakus: sounds likely. If youkai it'd explain why he's itan, if some of Litouten's DNA was added to the mix.

"I convince myself this is love" which I've seen other people remark on also as possibly implying sexual abuse, but that's a whole other tangent).

I think it's beyond an implication myself. Hot-eyed Litouten undressing his son equals what? My mind's in the gutter, retching.

Gyaaaaaah.

I'd have something more intelligent to say except:

Hot-eyed Litouten undressing his son equals what?

EWWWWWW.

Oooo. Cool and extremely disturbing!

Nataku in X is not a robot or a cyborg, but the clone of the scientist's dead daughter, and is genderless although he appears to be male.

The organic "spirit swords" that are born from women's bodies seem relevant to this discussion, though I'm not sure how. But they're also an organic/inorganic fusion with sexual overtones.

Doh! There we go. I keep referring to him as "he" just because I forget.

Also, just goes to show that my brain apparently equates god-youkai mixes with robots with cyborgs with clones.

I'm not quite sure if I get the same vibe from the spirit swords, just because they don't seem to be concerned with the questions about being human and etc. Also, while they're inorganic, they're too simple to be considered mechanical and wire-y and the like, which seems to be prevalent imagery in the others.

I think it is the technology aspect -- I don't have the same confusion with fantasy doppelgangers because they don't have the science-y feel to them.

Really, I think the best term for Nataku is construct. He's Frankenstein's monster, in a way, and what is Frankenstein's monster? Not a robot, not a clone, not a golem in the traditional sense. Not really a doll, with the implication of lifelessness, and not really a puppet, though that's the term Nataku himself uses, if I remember right.

Goku's also arguably a construct, but not one born of science. Goku is the child of the earth, and that seems to be literal. He sprang up on the mountain and from the mountain (maybe even in reaction to Nataku's creation? He's a character of balance, in a lot of ways), and was captured and brought to Heaven. And I just diverted myself once again with the question of why, when he didn't seem to be any threat to Heaven where he was, except of course that I have theories as to why and they're not germane to this discussion. *G* Anyway, I think Goku and Nataku are meant to serve as opposites in terms of imagery, right down to their guardian figures, and that could be another reason you connect Nataku with robot, because Goku is so darn organic.

I need a Gaiden icon for this LJ. Oh, well.

::uses what she has::

I think Goku's not a construct because Goku *isn't* constructed--he's not less natural than other creatures, like Nataku, he's *more* natural, seemingly the automatic child of Earth and lightning. And this is related to the way in which his murderous self seems more bestial and less coldly controlled than Nataku's, too.

The materials may be natural, and the creator Nature, but Goku was apparently no more born than Nataku was, which is what I meant by calling him a construct. I agree it's not quite the right term, but I can't currently think of one more suitable.

I think I tend to see Goku more as a force of nature. I can't quite remember what Gaiden says, but I'm pretty sure it does use the term "born," so while it's out of rock, it's still situated on the natural side of things.

Or I'm remembering wrong and that's Monkey from Journey to the West.

Anyhoo, it feels like while there's this great emphasis on Nataku being created by someone else, Goku sort of springs into life full-formed.

Gaiden says he was born from a rock, but I tend to interpret it as much like Nataku being born from a vat. I'm not saying Goku's unnatural in any way, just that he seems to be set up as the natural equivalent of Nataku, including an...odd mode of creation.

Also, when Minekura first mentions youkai-human cross-breeding in Saiyuki, there's an image of a flesh-and-blood human hand grasping a youkai hand dissolving into machinery. Um. Or it may be the opposite. I don't remember, but I'll check when I get home. Other youkai = machine imagery includes Kougaiji's mother bound up in some ginormous doomsday cryogenic thing with loads and loads of wires coming out (or in) her, a la CLAMP. So I figure it's a stretch, but you could probably connect this with Nataku being the forbidden union of god and youkai

Oh, that's neat; I hadn't connect Gaiden to the Minus Wave in that way. But doesn't the exposition explicitly contrast human technology and youkai magic, and say that it's the hybridization that's forbidden? This does make me wonder who's doing the forbidding, and why, although I'm not sure Minekura's world-building can sustain that kind of analysis. But based on Gaiden and the possibly non-manga-canonical Homura arc*, the gods in heaven forbade it--not the gods like Kanzeon Bosatsu, but the petty bureaucrats whose judgment is no more trustworthy than that of, say, most of the priets Sanzo mocks.

* The only reason I am tempted to accept any of the Homura arc as bearing on the manga is that from the Gaiden side-stories (gaiden gaiden?), it looks like Minekura was using Homura as a character.

Anyway. The mixture of technology and magic is created by Nii/Ukoku and we still don't know why. He may want to do world-wide psychology experiments. He may want to create a new world a la the Homura arc. He may want to destroy the world just to prove he can. He may want something entirely different. But the mix of technology and magic is defined as a heresy--and Sanzo calls Ukoku the "heretical Sanzo." And Ukoku has the sutras, but not the god-mark (as opposed to his apprentice, who had the god-mark but not the sutras).

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. The mixture of science/magic is clearly bad when it creates the Minus Wave--but there's a kind of superstitious fear of hybridization being used to support this, which is contradicted or at least complicated by the sympathetic pictures we get of hybrid characters like Nataku, Goku, Gojyo, and Hakkai. Hakkai isn't much of an argument--he is a monster, and not because he is a youkai; he is a youkai (or a human-youkai hybrid) because he's a monster. But all Gojyo did was get born; Nataku is being abused by the people around him, but the monstrosity is clearly not in him even if it's in the manner of his creation; Goku--I still think Goku is a natural force, like a hurricane, which does terrible damage on the human scale but which isn't evil because evil takes intentionality. Then again, I don't know how to account for the malice and joy in destruction evident in the Seitan Tasei we see.

Oh, that's neat; I hadn't connect Gaiden to the Minus Wave in that way.

Eh heh heh, neither did I! I totally forgot that Nii's experiments with youkai magic and technology caused it! -_-;;.

But doesn't the exposition explicitly contrast human technology and youkai magic, and say that it's the hybridization that's forbidden?

Um, yes, you are indeed correct. I forgot that part and just remembered the image of two hands.

I keep coming back to that image of technology connected to things going wrong in Saiyuki. Like you, I don't know how much Minekura's worldbuilding can hold up to why it's forbidden or how or something, but she does seem to be drawing on that imagery. (and damnit, I don't think I've read the Homura-arc!)

And it doesn't seem like the hybridization itself is wrong, authorially speaking, even though it's taboo in the world. Gojyo and Goku esp. seem to fall on the ok side of things; there's not that sense of horror in their creation and/or birth. I think that may be because it is natural and that they are born of flesh, as it were -- Gojyo of human and youkai, and Goku of.. uh... rock. Again with the hybridization and/or taboo: Gonou and Kanan's relationship isn't really condemned, despite the taboo, and it's similarly got the whole flesh thing to it. Ditto with Jien and his mother. I mean, it's horrifying and sad and tragic, but I keep feeling like it's different from Nii's experiments or Li Touten's.

Ok, I'm not sure where I'm going either, except I'm using "flesh" as a substitute for "of nature" (with no value judgment attached).

The youkai themselves, while scary, also don't seem quite as horrifying. Obviously Hyakuman Maoh is awful and terrible, but even he's connected with images of rotting and decay and centipedes (ewwww), and Gonou's slaughter is bloody to the extreme.

Hrm. I do keep coming back to the whole science/technology thing, because that's what seems unnatural in Minekura's world. Again, I don't think that the creations of this science/technology are blamed; Nataku's clearly a tragic figure, as is Kou and his mother (despite the genocide, heh). But the creators and users of technology do seem to be particularly horrific and insane.

Goku-wise... I don't know. I keep feeling like there's a difference somehow between the careful manipulation of technology and wires and vats of liquid used to support and/or create life and the bloodshed and cruelty and bestial nature of the youkai. And I don't know if it's just coincidence from the book, but Hyukuman and Gyuu are centipede and cow and very animal. Also, there's Goku the monkey and Hakkai the pig (from the Chinese).

(and damnit, I don't think I've read the Homura-arc!)

It's not in the manga at all, which is why it's of doubtful canonicity. It's S2 of the Saiyuki anime, presumably because they were lagging behind the manga or needed filler. They get through about V5, not as far as the Kami-Sama arc, and then the continuinities split. In the anime S2, Homura was the itan after Nataku, who breaks free of heaven with the assistance of two other gods -- one of whom is explicitly a god/youkai hybrid -- and steals all the sutras and tries to lure Goku to his side in order to create a new world free from the stains of the past--literally, which means the old universe would be destroyed to enable the creation of the new. This is all in addition to Nii and Lady Gyoukumen and the Minus Wave. It's very interesting because the plot hits some of the same emotional points as V6-9 of the manga, but uses entirely different events to do so. Homura and his friends are defeated/killed at the end of S2. The Saiyuki Reload anime starts, but instead of starting with the Reload manga, it starts with the manga's Kami-Sama arc and has to re-barcode Kougaiji.

I was ignoring Homura as not part of manga canon, but then he and his two friends show up in a side chapter on Gaiden.

I know that

rushthatspeaks is very fond of the Homura arc, and I have to admit the writing is very smart in some respects; it's just that the animation is so painful.

Huh, interesting!

I may end up avoiding, just because I've heard so many bad things about the animation, art-wise, and I am spoiled by the manga art.

Seitan Taisei certainly looks malicious, and he's destructive to everything around him, but I see him as the destructive side of nature, like Goku is the constructive part: the hurricane vs. the necessary monsoon. Seitan Taisei doesn't speak, he can't be reasoned with, and his malice seems more animal than human, the way that a cat plays with a mouse and clearly enjoys the game, but isn't sadistic in the human sense. I don't think Seitan Taisei knows the difference between right and wrong, which makes his killing sprees different from Gonou's.

Gundam Wing --> Wufei --> Gundam --> Nataku.

'Nuff said. :D

(Sorry if I seem stalkerish; found this entry on Google. XD;)

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Intl. Saiyuki Week - Nataku and Robots in Anime and Manga

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