oyceter | IBARW 3: International racism

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IBARW 3: International racism

keilexandra's post reminded me of a rant I've had brewing. (On a side note, this post isn't meant to argue with hers, as I completely agree with her post. Like

yeloson says, "Where you stand with intersectionality is really about what you're looking for—are you looking for social justice for all of us? Or are you just looking for someone to pull their foot off your neck, without worrying about whose necks you may be standing on yourself?")

I was in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Shanghai for the past two months this summer, and I cannot even count the number of times I heard anti-black comments, from "Oh, that place is so unsafe, so many black people!" to "OMG she's dating a black person and it will RUIN HER LIFE!" Before ranting about how racist Chinese society is (and oh, it is) and having people once more use that as an example of how bad Chinese people are, I would like to note: where do people think this prejudice is coming from?

Obviously, there are not cities and cities in China and Taiwan filled with black people for the media to make histrionic reports about. Most TV shows in Taiwan don't have sassy black sidekicks or Magical Negroes. But turn on the TV, and what do you see but bad HBO action flicks with the black guy getting killed, or all-white TV shows from the US (and sometimes the UK, but mostly the US), or news on the New Yorker cover of Obama. I'm also guessing that when the West began to trade with China, the ideas of the skience of race were probably brought over as well, complete with the placement of Asians above black people and Native Americans in the hierarchy (but all below white people, of course).

Six hundred years of white colonialism leaves its mark, even on areas that have suffered relatively little when compared to others.

... which is not to excuse anti-black sentiment, because choosing to side with the oppressors, no matter what the incentives? Still made of lose.

Intl. Blog Against Racism Week 3

My terms, definitions, and disclaimers

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I would like to note: where do people think this prejudice is coming from?

What you are talking about is exactly why i get so worked the fuck up over representations of Black folks in media. I'm tired of people-- here and in other countries-- wallowing in ignorance about people that look like me because stupid people in hollywood cant seem to get their heads out of their asses about what constitutes 'entertainment'.

I know! People are like: "Oh, it's just a movie/book/tv show/blah" and what? Somehow global racism against black people springs out there from the ether?! Because I'm betting all the people I met saying those things have probably never talking to an Actual Black Person (tm) in their lives and everything they think they know about black people comes from... dun dun dun, stupid media stereotypes.

Doh. I also forgot the part in which I wanted to say that acknowledging the role US-centrism plays in the global sphere in terms of racism and stereotypes and prejudices is not the same thing as approving and/or perpetuating US-centrism.

*nodnodnod* I was just having a similar discussion on the transferred-stereotype side of things recently, looking at the depiction of Indians in anime/manga; at best we're usually flagged with the generic-stereotypical visual shorthand of braids and fringe and feathers, and at worst it's just an insane collision mismatched elements from different nations or regions. (Plains warbonnets and Navajo sand-painting! Tipi-dwelling horse culture...that herds sheep! Etc. etc. etc.) It's more than a little cringeworthy at times, but it also totally unsurprising because Western media is full of equally cheesy Indian stereotyping.

Argh, I know! I was just reading Saiyuki Reload, and oh, Minekura, I love you, but I have problems with Gat, the large, preternaturally strong, nearly silent, very stoic NDN. I mean, seriously!

Heh, whereas I adore Gat because at this point, my expectations for Indian characters in comics are very low, and he exceeds them quite handily. He doesn't speak broken English (well, broken Japanese -- I understand he speaks Kansai-ben like Hazel since they're both "Western", but I've been told his grammar is quite correct); he's not an innately skilled tracker, or a mystical shaman sort spouting off about nature. He's exoticized to an extent -- but really no more so than Hazel, and his random fringe-and-feathers visual cues, while generic, aren't all that much more unplaceably generic-stereotype than Hazel's random Western-priest getup. Even his dreads, while I'm sure it's probably just Minekura picking a hairstyle that she thinks looks cool -- in my personal fanon I like to justify that by having him be Black Indian, since you see those characters in manga, Western comics, etc. even less, so that gives me a happy little buzz (even if her shading in the color artbook pics sometimes makes them look more like really tight sausage curls...)

In a more realistic setting, he might bug me a lot more, but in the Minekura-verse where even "China" and "India" seem to be very deliberate cultural pastiches, it doesn't bother me as much because all the characters to some extent are coming from a similarly pastiched background. But really, a lot of it comes down to just being so damn happy that she's not going for the usual uber-stereotyped accoutrements of the Plains nations -- no tipis, no warbonnets -- and by keeping it all so vague and generic, she manages to avoid the oh-so-common groaners of slapping together elements from totally different cultures. Plenty of Western media still haven't gotten past that "what, tipis and totem poles don't go together?" stage, so when someone working from an even further remove doesn't go to that sort of "all NDNs were one monolothic culture" point, it's kind of a refreshing change of pace...

*nods* Hee, the joys of low expectations? I know, seriously, when I see a Chinese person in manga who isn't in a mandarin collar, I nearly fall over rejoicing!

I mostly want Gat to have more character development... I mean, I think we're getting hints of it in Reload 8, though OK I am still a little annoyed that he is the protector of the white guy! On the other hand, at least it's clearly not the white guy saving the world, since Hazel's method of doing so is, uh, questionable to say the least ;).

^^^ This. And yet when we deconstruct "pop culture" etc. we're not taking on the REAL issues. As if they're not all connected.

Well its just a tv show/movie/book! Or something. That tv shows/movies/books happen to have become the primary means of dissemination of knowledge globally is just a minor assed detail.

My family is ethnically Somali but both my parents were raised in Kenya. The other day we were watching a documentary about Indians in East Africa and my mom told me that during colonial days the British set up a three tier tax system with the whites paying the most, the native peoples paying the least, and the Indian immigrants somewhere in the middle. According to my mom the Somalis in the area argued that they should pay as much as the Indians because their mixed ancestry (Bantu and Arab) made them more ... white.

To this day many Somalis believe there is a difference between them and 'black Africans'. Even in communities in the western world lighter skin, softer hair, and more Arab features (slimmer noses, lighter brown eyes, and weirdly, pale, hairy legs) are prized.

Oh and! There is a ton of racism in the Somali communities here in the US against ... black people. It's kind of stunning how easily some people in my community can enjoy, even prefer music made by black artists, movies by and about black people, and clothing and fashions that began in black communities, but at the same time show complete disdain for the entire community.

It's kind of stunning how easily some people in my community can enjoy, even prefer music made by black artists, movies by and about black people, and clothing and fashions that began in black communities, but at the same time show complete disdain for the entire community.

white people did the same, even as they hung us up from trees-- there's a great essay written in the 1920s or so about it by a Black writer, I'll have to tr to track it down.

Ouch, yes. I get really annoyed by how many Taiwan artists use hip-hop and R&B and basically appropriate from the black community while trying their hardest to ignore the people who created the art. It drives me crazy how easily people buy into white dominance, as if they think if they identify with the oppressor enough, they'll somehow be safe from oppression.

To this day many Somalis believe there is a difference between them and 'black Africans'.

This.

I was going to explain it (or at least the part of it relating to greater identification with Arab culture) but it's too complicated. 'I don't really understand it at all' complicated. It's not even a case of being 'white', but not being 'black', but not really Arabs either. The sheer number of classifications and sub-classifications even between Somalis is unbelievable. Maybe we just don't like catch-all terms?

I get so annoyed when I have to tell various relatives and acquaintances that I am black, even if they don't want to be.

Interesting. I haven't heard that yet here in Taiwan, but it may only be that it hasn't come up yet. (I don't speak Chinese much yet, so you may well have more general conversations in a short visit than I do living here.) Most of my in-depth discussions are with colleagues, so the most common topics are 1) work 2) my and their own personal experiences. Also, most of my colleagues have gone to school or worked in Europe or the US or both. I do see young Taiwanese picking up styles that are not only hiphop but specifically black, like crimped hair to make it look more like African texture, but then again the influence of styles and music that came from African-Americans in the US has never been any guarantor of lack of prejudice there.

I'll have to push the topic some and see what comes up.

Heh, try talking about Harlem. Or Oakland. This came up all the time with me when people were talking about living in East Bay and what were "better" (read: whiter) areas. I think also because a good deal of people in Taiwan do go to school and/or work in the US or Europe, the stereotypes get passed on even more.

I also think a lot of the taking of black culture is appropriation specifically because there's this attempt to divorce black hair and music and dance from actual black people. I've heard lots of comments on stuff like "singing like a black person" and etc., and you can tell from the tone of voice that while they admire the singing, they definitely don't admire the association with black people.

My post is going to involve a formal rquest for people who want to divorce things like our singing from us to just stop trying to listen to our music.

Not to deny your point, because, certainly, internalisation of the standards of the colonisers, and even when resisted in any particular case, not always with radical challenges to basic concepts of the racialised hierarchy. But I also wonder if this also somehow bonded onto existing class/caste distinctions of paler (because spending more time indoors)/darker (peasants working in the fields) in colonised societies. Because those kinds of distinctions were certainly already in operation in e.g. the caste system in India when the Brits arrived.

Well, I think that's part of it, but it's been so long since Western racial hierarchy has been imported that that's what's showing. I mean, there is a lot of "You must be paler! Do not tan!" going on, but the way it's thought of now is much more racialized than classisized (er, class-ized?). I.e. if someone's very dark, people say, "Oh, you look like a black person!" not "You look like a farmer/other classist remark."

It's also in how the prejudices against black people are different than ones from other darker-skinned people (mostly Indian and S.E. Asian right now) and how those prejudices precisely reflect back USian (and older, colonialist) prejudices and stereotypes about black people. And in comments about Oakland and Harlem and whatnot.

Of course, the preference for lighter skin in India isn't entirely free of foreign influence. Before the British arrived, India was colonized by Persian invaders, who were much lighter-skinned than the existing population. (And no, I'm not talking about the myth of the Aryan invasion of 100 BCE -- I'm speaking of the Mughal empire beginning roughly 1500 CE) And the persian invaders, of course, had a history of warfare both with Greeks many many centuries before and with the Crusaders.

Theories:

1) Skin color. In imperial/Confucian society, lighter skin color = literati. This carries on, I think, into 美白 "beautiful whiteness" and all.

2) Relative isolation. Not so much contact since the time of Zheng He. Not many foreigners who are black. (And thus a self-reinforcing vicious circle: black people don't feel welcome; lack of exposure continues; incorrect impressions grow; cycle restarts.)

3) Possibly Taiwan-specific. China has a lot more interest in Africa these days, and is building infrastructure like mad. Taiwan has lost a lot of diplomatic standing with a lot of African countries -- witness the "cash diplomacy" that went on with South Africa. I feel like I see less racism against African people from mainland Chinese people than from Taiwanese people, but that's especially subjective.

4) What you said. It seems like a lot of people's ideas are formed on the basis of movies and TV from the US. I had to tell my students, quite often, "Not everyone in the US has a gun. Not everyone drives fast. Not everyone dies in a shoot-out."

5) What

dichroic said. There's a lot of idolizing of black people to go along with the racism. The idolizing can also be problematic: "I wish I could play basketball or do hip-hop dancing as well as black people!" But the attitudes aren't only negative.

Just my theories.

(disclaimer: I'm a white Jew who has never been to China, so this is all secondhand, my reporting of one friend's experiences in one small part of China.) A friend of mine who is a black man who has been living in mainland China for years has encountered a lot of racism, of a different sort from what he encountered in United States. And my understanding from him is that it is a mix of pre-existing valuation of pale skin combined with stereotypes about black men from American movies.

"I wish I could play basketball or do hip-hop dancing as well as black people!" But the attitudes aren't only negative.

But I cant help but feel that the idolization is extremely negative because it depends on stereotypes.

YES OMG YES.

to know how deeply unimpressed i am by that kind of bullshit.

It's like, "Oh, we will keep you out of politics and business and pretend all of you are poor and criminalized, but hey, we think you can sing! Doesn't that make everything better?"

i'm working on a FABULOUS rant about this for later...

Looking forward to it!

Yes, I agree that any kind of bias like that is negative. What I meant was, not all attitudes of Taiwanese people towards African and black people are based in stereotype, and not all are negative.

OK, gotcha.

While I think older, classist values on skin color influence the acceptance of anti-black racism, the shape and form that racism takes is extremely influenced by Western imperialist rhetoric and more recently by US anti-black racism. Because when people talk about other people being dark, they say things like, "She's dark like a black person" or they comment on Harlem or how they saw so many black people walking around in Oakland that it made them scared.

I don't know as much re: China, but I'm guessing that the way Africa-China trade is structured (natural resources out of Africa to China, finished goods from China to Africa), the rhetoric may not be the same as it is with China and other, more "desirable" trade partners (read: the West).

I also think the idolizing isn't idolizing at all, but is just more cultural appropriation, largely because it goes hand in hand with racism against black people while trying to take everything but the burden. The "idolizing" is also taking forms that echo ones in the US: "black people are good at physical things, but not anything mental!" "Black people are good at basketball (implied: but not at anything else)!"

I hadn't heard US-style anti-black racism that much in Taiwan, but once I came back to the US, I suddenly heard a lot more. If US-style racism is spreading in Taiwan, that's both very interesting and very unfortunate.

I'd really like to know more about China's presence in the African countries its trading with, and Chinese attitudes towards the people there. I suspect there's a lot of cultural imperialism going on, but I haven't seen any reporting specifically on that. (And it'd be especially hard to get any objective reporting on that, anyway.)

You're right, a lot of it is cultural appropriation. So much of it doesn't pass the "But would you let one of those folks marry your daughter?" test.

I've actually heard the US-style anti-black racism for quite some time (definitely before I moved to the US, so at least 8 years ago and probably more); I know a lot of it is from people who've spent time in the US, but my guess is that given the number of people Taiwan sends to the US for education and etc. and then tries to lure back, the importation of anti-black attitudes has been going on for a while. Also, US media is just so prevalent in Taiwan...

"black people are good at physical things, but not anything mental!" "Black people are good at basketball (implied: but not at anything else)!"

I want to walk around with you while wearing my sweater from Hoity Toity School and see how many people eye me with obvious shock and amazement.

Sadly, I can't help but wonder how many of them will think you stole it from some nice white person.

I'm guessing that the way Africa-China trade is structured (natural resources out of Africa to China, finished goods from China to Africa), the rhetoric may not be the same as it is with China and other, more "desirable" trade partners (read: the West).

I believe this have a similar impact as the transfer of raw goods and finished materials did with European colonies and European powers. The places that are the origins of 'raw materials' are disparaged and denigrated as a matter of course, and the trade is structured in such a way as to devalue those who are purchasing/consuming the finished goods/providing the raw materials.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. It does need more research, but it looks too much like past imperialist trade for comfort...

Apropos of formerly-colonized nations picking up the habits and tactics of their former colonizers, have you been listening to the NPR series about Chinese (PRC) investment in Africa? I think it finished up last week, so should be in their audio archives. One of the segments that bugged me most was about a Chinese company investing in a mine in Congo at a huge advantage (Congo not getting a lot of development cash from anywhere else, or so I understand), so that yet again, an African country is considered useful only for its natural resources to be exploited and exported abroad.

I haven't, but should look that up! But yeah, that is a big reason why I don't think increased Chinese investment in Africa will lead to less Chinese anti-black sentiment.

Interesting -- a well-traveled (black) friend sent this to me by email this morning, because we had been talking about my desire to visit mainland China someday:

A few weeks ago I was chatting with you about this and I just
wanted to forward you to the source for the materials:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Anti-African_protests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Anti-African_protests)

As China has grown in world prominence, one of the things they have
been doing is working very closely and generously with a number of
African countries. This has caused a very unique form of racial
tension within China that few people know about that I have been
chatting with some people who are in the Asian continent about since
there are some issues related to racial profiling for African
Americans traveling to China for the olympics that I had heard about.
I hadn't been able to confirm the stories yes, but there is a lot of
evidence to suggest that they are true:

http://shanghaiist.com/2008/07/18/the_racist_games.php (http://shanghaiist.com/2008/07/18/the_racist_games.php)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080726122856AAhhvXD (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080726122856AAhhvXD)

There is a lot that most people don't hear about because the US news
is so bad about reporting a lot of things that happen outside of the
United States, but this is something that has specific applicability
to black folks so I wanted to make sure I passed this on before I
forgot about it.

I don't believe that bars in Beijing have been ordered not to serve black people. But this is how prejudices get started.

I still want to visit China. Frankly, as an African-American traveler, I encounter this kind of crap everywhere, because the US has exported its racism everywhere, and at the same time there are new pressures in various countries -- immigration from Africa as European and former-Soviet countries' native populations decline, etc. I got some ugly looks when I walked into businesses in Sicily until I opened my mouth and revealed my horrific American-accented Italian; then they got friendly (once they verified I wasn't from Africa [more directly =P]). But I had a long sit-down with a fellow from Sierra Leone, who told me his reception is rarely as good.

And it doesn't help that the animosity goes both ways. I had a fight with my dad a few months ago because he was declaring that all Asians are thieves and low-class (on the strength of one incident with one woman). Pointing out that his thinking fit right into certain peoples' divide-and-conquer strategy was the only thing that shut him up; up to that point he was utterly convinced. And he's usually quick to understand the systemic nature of racism -- but his anger just shut down all logic. (He's pretty mad at the Cherokee right now, too. -_-)

::sigh:: I don't know what to do about it, other than fighting these media stereotypes whenever we find them. I think it might help to fight historical revisionism, too -- there's a lot of evidence of centuries of trade between East Africa and China in pre-colonial times, and a lot of shared culture you can still see remnants of now. I wonder how many modern Chinese or Africans -- even east Africans -- are aware of this? And I think we do need to travel more to China. Personal contact can destroy stereotypes too... though I'm not sure how "fun" of a trip that'll be for the people who choose to do it. Or safe.

It was reported in the bbc that bar owners were told not to serve Blacks and Mongolians, from what I recall.

I can't say that I dont think it's entirely unbelievable.

In general, Greater China (mainland, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc.) is pretty safe, at least in terms of physical safety. Chances of getting mugged are quite a bit lower, on the whole, than in the US. Other forms of safety -- emotional, spiritual -- may be closer to that of the US.

I remember noticing that most of the ethnic groups in Taiwan (and there are a lot: "mainlanders" (Han Chinese who came to Taiwan post-1949), "natives" (Han Chinese who have been in Taiwan since before 1949), Hakka, Ami, Puyuma, etc. etc.) believe that people from other ethnic groups are lazy, unreliable and devious. I first heard it from "mainlanders" about Hakka people; I later heard it from a Hakka person about the "natives". And the general cultural vibe in Taiwan is that all the aboriginal folks match that stereotype, too. Towards the end of my stay, when I heard someone use that stereotype, I couldn't help but laugh and tell the person, "But they say exactly the same thing about you!"

Thanks for the links! And very yes about how complex it all is. I hate it when family and family friends start going into the whole "OMG black people so scary!" thing, especially because they tend to give me the whole "Oh, you just say that because you don't know how the world really works, youngster" lecture whenever I try to argue.

And what is up with white people who keep bringing up the racism of (mostly Asian) POC and saying that they're 'even worse' than white people? It just makes me want to question why they are so very invested in having someone to be 'better' than/to be 'worse' than them.

As though these are things that can be compared.

"Yes, I will treat you badly, but hey - it's better than those people! over there! in some other country! Respect how NICE I AM TO YOU!"

*headdesk*

With a side of passing the buck: "It's not like white imperialism effectively constructed modern racism, really! Those (foreign, uncivilized, brown) people are much more racist than we are!"

It's like the fascination with "tribal" conflicts (never mind that in many cases, e.g. Rwanda, the "tribal" divisions were actually started by colonialist divide-and-conquer strategies ...).

If you can find someone more racist/sexist/anykindofcruel than you/your group, then you don't have to fix your own behavior! Because at least you're Not As Bad As Them! It's magic privilege-check immunity, that NABA bingo square.

Ignorance and disparagement of Africans and black Africans accompanied and accompanies European and Arabian colonization.

I'm very tired of it.

And yes, American pop-culture, with it's global domination of cinema and tv, and all its racist anti black/black-African storylines and tropes plays a big role in it. If we are the stories we tell ourselves, are audiences of, and many of these stories assume that blacks are 'rough' it's a belief that goes unchallenged and is absorbed wholesale. It's repeated often enough that people act as if it's true. :(

It's repeated often enough that people act as if it's true. :(

Yep.

Don't get me started on the 'benefits' of desegregation.

Let's talk about the drawbacks, shall we?

Let's talk about what's happens to hundreds of years of placing a premium upon written education when the supervision and teaching of black children is plaaced completely in classrooms run by white people who act as if black children are of inferior intellect and potential.

i was thinkin gin terms of what happens when black people are no longer allowed to have control over the creation and distribution of their own culture, (http://exittheapple.com/index.php/2006/07/we-still-wear-the-mask-william-jelani-cobb/) but education works too.

Oh, that. Yeah. That's another bad, too. But when the people about whom these stories/songs supposedly are happen to be shut out of creating these stories/songs...

I need to go find me some deep fried sesame jean dau. And some black cake. Because all of this makes me very sad, especially since it seems as if the despite and disrespect leveled against us is the (fake) road to becoming modern and prosperous in the global economy-n-society.

Who was desegregation supposed to help?

You've reminded me of watching some behind the scenes footage of Dong Bang Shin Ki filming a music video. There's a Black woman in the video, and the band members were discussing how she was the first Black person they'd ever met, and they were a bit surprised at how quiet and refined she was (I believe there was mention she was a model). That made me blink, then sit back and think. I know the U.S. has Black military stationed in South Korea, and I realized I'd been assuming there were more in the general population, and that the military would mingle freely. Except really, I know better. U.S. military bases can be very insular, even in the U.S. Also, young Korean entertainers tend to live in rather closed-off systems of their own, so while the members of DBSK may have seen Black people on the street, it's not unreasonable that they never actually met or talked to a Black person.

At any rate, my own experiences would indicate it's pretty easy to fall into the trap of believing stereotypes when you don't have living examples that break the stereotypes around you. I was also considering how exported U.S. media, with its negative portrayal of Black people, might interact with anti-U.S. military sentiment, thanks to our imperialist activities in Asia. Certainly, that seems to be a big issue in South Korea. I'm not sure how it feeds into pre-existing racism and systems of white skin=better than dark, since I've never really looked into that aspect, but I have no doubt none of it helps.

This post reminds me of the Taiwanese guy I worked with in Japan who was convinced, convinced I tell you, that black people's skin gets lighter as they get older, based solely on, I shit you not, the recasting of the Vivian Banks character in Fresh Prince of Bel Air. *headdesk* (He didn't realize they had recast the character. He really thought that because your skin "stretches" as you get older, the color gets lighter. Seriously, where do people come up with this shit?)

As you said, it's not as if fucked up ideas about black folk springs up out of the ether.

black people's skin gets lighter as they get older, based solely on, I shit you not, the recasting of the Vivian Banks character in Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

*boggle*

In hindsight I wish I had taken the time to educate him, but at the time we all just ended up howling with laughter and unable to form coherent sentences.

That works for me!

Hee! I think he probably got the idea from that ;).

I'm hyperventilating just *reading* this -- I can only imagine the madness of hearing that in person.

a lot of US citizens don't realize that we censored Japanese media ferociously during the occupation, even antiwar memoirs by Japanese veterans, but also imported US pop culture there, too.

And racial depcitions in "wholesome" US media 1945-1952 weren't any too wholesome, of course.

Yeah, definitely a good point!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZtQUEY1IU8

A sidenote: when I was visiting relatives in China, they would constantly remark about how tan I was, and not at all in a good way (though they'd try to hide it, of course, but never that well). An interesting contrast to the Western (or maybe just American?) obsession with tanning and being "bronze" or whatever.

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IBARW 3: International racism

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you've witnessed enough of my rants on singing...

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Not As Bad As - the catch-all excuse

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well...

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The US literally micromanaged Japanese pop culture for many years,too

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