oyceter | IBARW 2!

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IBARW 2!

Guess what? It's almost time for Intl. Blog Against Racism Week again!

Yes, I am making this a yearly thing.

Since it started around mid-July last year, I want to keep it around the same time. But since my birthday is in late July, and I am entirely selfish and really don't want to be dealing with potential race-related stupidity around my birthday, I am making the first full week of August officially the week of IBARW.

So that's August 6 to August 12!

This year, I want to a) read through all of last year's entries and pick my favs, b) blog more about POC reactions to racism (internalized, denial, acknowledgment, anger, etc.) without having it turn into "But POC are racist too OMG WOE!", c) actually do something about the "international" part, and d) continue to post about it the rest of the year too.

What Can I Do?

Well! I'm glad you asked! (or, uh, didn't, but whatever, I'll pretend that people did.)

First, I'd love volunteers to be Icon-Makers of the Revolution!

I made some icons last year, which are still up for grabs, and I will make more this year. But I am singularly uncreative and am running out of icon ideas, and my icon skills are passable but really not the best. Also, for people who want customized personal icons or whatnot, it'd be nice to have more icon-makers to go to.

Second, I need a Record-Keeper of the Revolution!

You'll be compiling all IBARW posts during the week, like rilina did last year in the handy link compilation. I think mostly people comment with a link to theirs, so you don't have to search all over the internet to find things. The link compilation will include all posts for IBARW, including sporktastic ones, though I encourage people to create their own recommended posts lists too!
- Alternately... since IBARW generated over 200 posts last year, I think it'd also be cool if there were a Programmer of the Revolution who wrote up a link-compiling program that would have people input the link, title, poster, time posted, and summary of their posts and spit out a handy-dandy list. I think I do have webspace for something like this, although I'd need to re-investigate, as I have completely forgotten what I can do with it.

Thirdly, post!! If you're a white person and don't want to take attention away from POC bloggers, I respect that a lot. But if you still want to contribute without taking attention away, you can also post links to posts POC have made as well, or drive traffic, or search for IBARW links that people may have missed.

And while I'm asking for things, I so want an Anti-Racism 101 blog a la Finally, a Feminism 101 Blog. I would very much contribute and possibly even be able to create the blog, but I don't think I have the time to post to it often. Maybe I will think about just compiling links and whatnot for the FAQs section or something. Hrm...

Thoughts? Questions? Bueller?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Oh, exciting!!! Last year was splendid, & I look forward to this year too.

Sadly, I have no icon talent. I could do the Record-Keeper thing, but it would be even more fabulous if you had a Programmer of the Revolution show up instead. :)

Yay!

jinian suggested a wiki, which I think is brilliant!

Oooh, I concur!

On record-keeping, how about a wiki? I'd be happy to host.

Oh! That's brilliant! It'd be awesome if you could host, thank you!

I have no thoughts or questions at this time; I merely wish to shriek with glee.

Yaaaay!

Whee!

^___^

Re recording keeping: I second the suggestion of a wiki, or recommend using something like delicious.

Yeah.. I'm leaning toward wiki right now, though with delicious, it'll be easier to subscribe. Hrm. Will contemplate and discuss with Jinian, who has volunteered herself.

I think I do have webspace for something like this, although I'd need to re-investigate, as I have completely forgotten what I can do with it.

You can do a database/webpage thing - you've got MySQL and PHP enabled.

If you want to do a wiki, you can install MediaWiki (the Wikipedia software) with a one-click install. If you do that I HIGHLY recommend, seeing how ... enthusiastic this sort of discussion can be, either appointing several mods/admins to keep an eye on it during that week and the few weeks after to block trolls and spambots and revert pages when they get trolled or spammed if you keep membership open, or locking down account creation to admins only to keep a handle on the trolls and bots. Option 1 is more work but better PR-wise because you're not excluding anyone, Option 2 is less work but opens you to accusations of not letting people have their say, whatever say it is.

But it all depends on what you envision for the wiki. I'd suggest installing it now and getting familiar with editing it. :)

Hee, I thought so, but I couldn't remember!

I suspect the wiki would probably be for admins only, since there will be so much stuff going on that it'll be hard to police everything. Will get in touch with Jinian and see what she thinks too.

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Oooh, thanks for the links!

And hey, no worries.

I'll help in anyway I can. Would you like to use my Black Feminist/Lesbian reading primer? I can add to it too.

Thank you, you are awesome! I may grab you later for the link list modding or promoting on various comms or something.

Also, I would love to use your reading primer!

For the compilation type thing, you might benefit from using del.icio.us and del.icio.us glue. I believe it's what metafandom uses these days, and seems to work pretty well for link-compiling; I bet they'd be able to show you how to use it. And having all the posts up and linked on del.icio.us as well as within LJ seems like a good idea to me - it's public, widely-used, and a lot easier to search through than LJ.

On a different note, I'm not signing up as an official Icon Maker of the Revolution for potential RL reasons, but I'll hopefully be able to make some icons in time.

Doh, replied to the wrong comment!

I'm international! I have Somali and British citizenship. The former is worth shit for passports or the right to vote or anything else that comes with citizenship, but I feel like it counts.

I'll have to think about what I can say...

That would be excellent! I remember some people in the UK posting that their town/city/whatnot had no racism, which made me seriously doubt them, but I didn't have enough info. to make a very good defense.

I would love to read whatever you decided to write on.

"I remember some people in the UK posting that their town/city/whatnot had no racism."

Yeah people say that. And then they turn around and use 'Irish' as a synonym for 'stupid', or complain about 'the Pakis', or tell you that you're alright, it's just everyone else who looks like you that they don't like.

Wow, I have quite a bit of material. I'll save it for the week.

Or I could just post it whenever I feel like and link it all together for IBARW.

Yeah people say that. And then they turn around and use 'Irish' as a synonym for 'stupid', or complain about 'the Pakis', or tell you that you're alright, it's just everyone else who looks like you that they don't like.

Yeah, I sort of figured that's what kind of "we have no racism!" it was. Which is to say: it is more them willfully not seeing racism as opposed to racism actually being absent.

And hey, posting whenever and linking is great too!

I just don't believe that anywhere has no racism, unless it's on a technicality involving everyone or most people being technically of the same race. And in every case like that which I can think of, there are massive racism-equivalent issues involving caste, ethnicity, membership in a tribe/clan/etc, religion, etc. Either the lack of racism is because it's been displaced onto a technically different but practically similar -ism, or the person saying that just hasn't noticed it.

Or, of course, they are speaking of an area not inhabited by humans.

I know!

I think I am going to have a massive disclaimer post for the Monday of IBARW, one of which will be that I do not believe you (general you, not you-you) when you say there is no racism, unless everyone living in your area is the same race, you get absolutely no media or books or etc. from anywhere else in the world, you do not contact any other cultures at all, no matter how superficially, and the area you live in has never been affected by imperialism or colonialism (as the colonizer or as the colonized), and everyone is the same race by accident and not history; i.e. people of color were not forcibly displaced from the area.

I find it very hard to believe that such a place exists in the world, unless, of course, like you say -- it's not inhabited by humans.

I think I am going to have a massive disclaimer post for the Monday of IBARW, one of which will be that I do not believe you (general you, not you-you) when you say there is no racism

*nods fervently*

It has pissed me off no end when UK posters in recent debates have pulled the "we don't have racism like you in the US" schtick. Because it is utter bullshit (as

shewhohashope has already pointed out).

It is absolutely true that racism in the UK often occurs with different inflections, that there are some major differences in the history, that the most charged issues aren't always the same, and that assuming that everyone everyone experiences things in the same way as Americans can be a problem in itself.

But of course racism exists here, often virulently, and denying it really doesn't help.

{/rant}

Yes, exactly! I don't mind at all when intl. people say that it's limiting to think of racism exactly like how it's thought of in the US, because that's true. But that's very different from saying that because it's different, it doesn't exist at all!

I'm here belatedly from a link

witchqueen left on

robin_anne_reid's post, but I just had to say great big fat shiny WORD to that. It drives me *crazy*, and it makes it so hard to talk about the actual differences in how race/racism are constituted differently through different histories. It's so very blinkered for British people in particular to think that their (our, as I am one of them) country has no racism, given, hello, world-taking-over racial superiority complex enduring hundreds of years? I think a big part of the problem is that in much of the UK it is considered terribly impolite to even mention race, and this is then interpreted as there being no racism. *shakes head*

And then I try to talk about race with certain members of my white British family and they tell me I've been warped by my crazy American activist friends. Which, well, yes I have, but I prefer to call it education.

And now to conclude my off-topic ramble, I will say: Yay for IBARW!! *marks calendar*

I think a big part of the problem is that in much of the UK it is considered terribly impolite to even mention race, and this is then interpreted as there being no racism.

Oh man, yes! I encountered that a lot last year when first starting to talk about race on LJ too.

Also, I've gotten a few comments about "Americans and their crazy notions about race" which have confused me a little -- I can't quite tell if people are saying that we shouldn't talk about racism just from an American perspective, as instances of racism in different countries will manifest differently, which I think is a very valid and important point, or if they're saying that only Americans are racist and make a big deal out of race. To which I roll my eyes at.

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As a Brit, I would say the best response is to acknowledge that there are indeed places in the UK without racism because there are plenty of communities where everyone is the same race/nationality etc but we all live in the wider community and country as well as our own small village or suburb or whatever, and there is certainly racism out there. What it basically means of course is that they don't understand the theory of institutional racism, because unless they don't watch the TV they have certainly been exposed to that!

Well, I would go even further than that, because I am guessing that communities in which everyone is the same race/nationality exist because of racism, be it gentrification or white flight or whatnot. So saying that racism doesn't exist while living in a community that is most likely a direct product of racism is rather specious to me. It's sort of like saying that there is no racism or sexism in Hollywood because all the movies are about white men.

Also, I am betting that the people saying that there is no racism where they live interact with POC on a fairly daily basis, be it on public transportation or at work or whatnot. Which is why I roll my eyes every time I hear the "but the place I live is so not racist that we don't think about race at all!" thing.

Re: Brits and Americans... I'd say from what I've seen of American society that many Americans think it's horrifically rude to talk about race at all, which is why you get so many arguments about "colorblindness" being the best route and so many people telling others that they are racist for even bringing up racism. It's a very insidious form of aversive racism.

The less polite people simply make snide racist jokes and moan and groan about the PC police.

Also, I think the circles in LJ that I tend to frequent talk and think about race a LOT more than general society. And that's mostly speaking of my flist and the bloggers I regularly read; I got the impression from the SGA debates and the PotC debates that most of fandom doesn't want to think about race at all and will in fact vehemently deny any conversations about racism and attempt to shut down the conversations in any way possible.

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Well, I'd argue back about communities being all white -- I'm not saying that they aren't, but I'm saying that that is not a good reason to say that racism doesn't exist in that community, because it is ignoring a lot of larger issues. For example, the smaller number of POC in the UK has to do with immigration policies that up till the 1970s or so greatly restricted the immigration of POC by means of grandfather-type clauses. And I think a great part of it has to do with the fact that Britain went out and colonized other countries during the 1700s and 1800, as opposed to bringing the colonized back in (though of course there were a few cases).

This is all from quick Googling, so I'm probably missing a ton of the shades of grey, but by and large, I don't think people can just say that the UK has fewer POC and therefore less racism, as racism seems to have played a large part in the number of POC in the country in the first place. It also looks like immigration is a big issue, unsurprisingly with a focus on the immigration of POC.

ut in summary, by saying that 'gentrification or white flight or whatnot' is a manifestation of racism, you are making assumptions about how ethnic minority communities have formed, as well as assumptions about what a society should be 'trying' to achieve, neither of which can necessarily be applied to Britain with its different history and social structure.

Well, I did some more Googling, and it looks like POC in the UK have higher unemployment rates, are much more likely to live in low-income households, and are at considerable more risk of being the victim of a racially motivated incident. Again, these are the basics and not shades of grey, but given that there do seem to be class divides on racial lines, I don't think it's stretching too far to say that housing patterns and the racial composition of neighborhoods are influenced by racism.

I'm not saying that POC, particularly immigrant POC, don't try to form their own communities, I think the reasons for doing so is far more complicated than simple self-perpetuation. Just from a brief glance, it looks like issues of class are involved, and just from statistics, I am guessing that POC in the UK may not feel that comfortable in the society, which also leads to self-segregation.

I am clearly not an expert, but the conflicting things that I hear on LJ from white people in the UK and POC in the UK make me skeptical when white people in the UK dismiss racism as a motive or a reason for racial divides, because it's much easier for white people to overlook racism.

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Depends how you define racism,I suppose

Pretty much as the institutional oppression of people based on race.

So it is either a situation where you have to take a back seat until another Brit comes along or you can try to argue your points from your position of disadvantage.

My problem with this is that by and large, I find myself arguing these points with white British people. Which brings me to:

Who is in a better position to judge the prevalence of discrimination - the people feeling its effects or the people controlling the effects? Personally I firmly believe you have to take testimony from both sides of the equation or any conclusion is meaningless.

I believe in taking testimony from both sides, but I also believe that those who have privilege generally really suck at noticing that they have privilege, whereas those who don't are extremely aware of the effects of discrimination. Which is why I have been arguing about this; I don't think I know the country better than you, but just from general feedback from British fans of color, I suspect that, much like most places, the view of the effects of racism are very, very different depending on how much privilege someone has.

Also, I'm rather tired and would really rather not argue/discuss, so I probably won't be responding any further.

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As a general rule though I would say that if you have to choose between suspecting disadvantages caused by class and by race then class is more likely to be the culprit.

I vehemently disagree with this, and I think the comparison of oppressions is at best pointless and usually a way to obscure whatever oppression people are talking about. And when I am talking about racism, I am talking about institutional racism.

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On LJ, my impression is that there is a central core of, primarily American, well educated left-wing thinkers who talk about racism all the time in public, another group who link to various race related articles with or without comment, and everyone else will only touch on the subject directly in private and that only occasionally.

I suspect that our meters for discussion of race may vary or we aren't in very similar circles. I found in my four years on LJ that race was almost never touched upon, or if it was, it would lead to a giant wankfest, a la SGA. Sometimes people would critique shows on race, but the comments would get increasingly virulent. And I think this is where experiences differ; ever since I have been on LJ, I have been painfully aware that the main fannish world is extremely white and extremely uncomfortable with being called out on that fact. This is, of course, not noting groups like

deadbrowalking that make themselves spaces for fans of color. But in general, if people just stumble into fandom, they stumble into a very white space.

Well, it is always hard to quantify non-participation and even harder to find out the reasons for it. My general impression is that fandom as a whole hates wank and will avoid wider meta issues because they are perceived as leading to wank. (They may have a point about that last one.)

To be honest, I think fandom avoids race in a way that cannot be explained by the desire to avoid wank. I think the desire to avoid heated topics is a part of it, but after having seen multiple conversations being drowned out by protests of "We are colorblind!" or "Why must you talk about race?" I find it hard to believe that it's just the desire to avoid wank-potential. Of course, there's the fact that fans see race as a wanky issue to begin with, which I would argue is because the climate is very unfriendly to those trying to seriously and continually discuss race. Also, fans generally don't seem to have much of a problem looking closely at slash or LJ social dynamics.

As regards active attempts to shut conversations down, I didn't see any of that myself in the SGA debates, although I have seen a lot of people say it happened so I assume that was mostly in the SGA-specific discussions, which I never saw. In the wider meta discussions I never saw anyone who was clearly attempting to shut the conversation down except for when tempers had already got really heated.

By "shutting down," I generally mean the trend of being shouted down for being racist whenever someone mentions that a show's racial politics are dodgy, the immediate attempts to direct the conversation to whiteness, the attempts to not look at white oppression of POC but to rather focus on red herring topics like "reverse racism" and "But POC are racist too!" I don't think everyone does it consciously; I in fact think many people have such a knee-jerk reaction that they do it subconsciously. I think fandom as a whole is extremely uncomfortable acknowledging white privilege and as such will go to great extremes to avoid it in conversation. Of course, I don't think everyone in fandom is like that, and I do think things have changed in the last year (when I started noticing), but there is still a long, long way to go.

Race relations and racism are all about motives.

Wow, I totally disagree. I've found that bias can be perpetuated even when no one involved intends it.

For instance, here in Seattle the community colleges (2-year degree) have a much higher percentage of people of color than the universities (4-year degree). The tuition per quarter for the two-year schools is roughly half that of the four-year schools, and many of the people I've talked to at those schools say that they aren't able to afford university. (There are often financial aid options they're unaware of, but I'll ignore the extent to which that might be affected by race for now.) Because students at the community colleges often have very little money, more of them tend to work than university students, and they tend to work longer hours. The grade average is lower, leading to fewer scholarships being open to them, and I believe that in many cases the difference in grades is due to spending more time at work. The best part? The community college I attended was not permitted student loans by the US government, because in the past those loans had been a bad risk -- current students suffered because of past economic problems in their community. So these students start with less money, they remain poorer during school, and they're less likely to be able to get a degree that will earn them a higher salary later.

Barring grand conspiracy theories, I'm pretty sure that no one in my fairly liberal city has set out to disadvantage students of lower socioeconomic class. All of these steps make sense if one assumes a level playing field to start with. It's the existing inequity that leads to more inequity, and it can do that even if everyone has only good intentions. My example isn't centered on race, though I certainly saw a lot more POC at the community college than I have at the university, but similar mechanisms can work to restrict the options available for people based on their race even if there's no overt bashing involved.

Yes, very much so!

Am too tired to write more, so just... word.

I'm in! Apartment-hunting has provided some scary discussion-fodder.

Whoo!

Hey, are you still up for writing that faq? I'm sure I can help come up with lots of stupid questions ;).

I could do some icons. Last year, IIRC, someone was suggesting the motto "Spork Out Against Racism," which is pretty silly but also pretty effective because it makes people stop and think a moment while they laugh. Any interest in that again? (I've already started playing around with ideas with some spork pix.) Also am making one to use myself featuring book cover art by Leo and Diane Dillon, award-winning artist/illustrators who happen to be a biracial couple and who have done a lot of SF&F cover work (example: the U.S. paperback covers for Garth Nix' "Abhorsen" trilogy). And I'd be glad to turn others' ideas into icons if they don't feel comfy about doing it themselves.

That would be great! I'll check with Yoon about the spork motto; I think it was her custom icon last year.

Will definitely ping you later when things really get started.

What about flacking the concept to other potentially supportive bloggers? I hang out on a couple of SF&F bulletin boards - some of the members in both places blog on LJ, but some blog on other services. I can do a post closer to the date, mentioning the concept. You could come up with a very short press release kind of thing I could post (giving goals of the initiative, history, etc.), or I could just wing it it myself. I'll clear it ahead of time with the board mods, if this is something you'd like to do.

(Even if the idea of a separate post doesn't fly, I think I will change my sig lines during that week to mention the event and point back to whatever is designated as the main blog/site.)

Oooo yes. I keep meaning to pimp, but I sort of suck at it because I always feel like I'm wasting people's time. So that would be awesome. Thank you!

Oh, very cool. ^_^ I'll look forward to it!

Yay!

I am so glad that this is happening again. I will think about what I can do to help, raise awareness, etc.

Thank you!!

Also, what

shati said below. I am probably near overcommitted to things right now as it is and so am leery of making promises... but.

But.

But for something which I perceive as being this important? Yeah.

My icon skills are minimal but I am willing to offer them up. Or do something else to help, just so you know. Add me to your backup team, or whatever?

I will, and thank you so much!

I missed IBARW mostly, last time around, and I couldn't figure out, in the aftermath, if there was a deliberate tone of conciliation, or if that was just the tone a lot of people took.

I probably don't have another big huge post about race and fandom in me this year, and certainly not this soon after the last one, but I might make icons. Most of the ones I can think of are sort of 'slap in the face' ones like the one I'm using, though, and if IBARW isn't about slaps in the face, then I might go ahead and make the icons, but not directly associate them with IBARW, so as not to muddy your waters.

I think I ended up taking a more deliberate tone of conciliation last year because I'm not as comfortable with confrontation, but this year, I would like to write more about things that are largely directed to POC instead of white people. But that's me.

I think it would also be good to have "slap in the face" icons as well, because I think people need to get used to the idea that this is an angry-making (and often brain-exploding) subject, and that people are angry for a really good reason. And I think it would be good to have a variety of reactions, not just conciliatory.

Thanks for asking! I hadn't really thought about that before, and I think you're right about the tone of IBARW last year.

I'm happy to be record keeper. Or back-up record keeper. Or just hang out on the sidelines and cheer.

That would be awesome, thank you! I was thinking of having people take shifts of sorts so one person wasn't stuck compiling or going through tons of links.

Psst, do you mind emailing me? I think I tried your LJ email, but it didn't seem to work. Mine is oyceter at gmail.

I am leery of taking on commitments right now, but consider this a non-commitment-y indication of interest in making icons for IBARW. *g* And am totally willing to take requests/do customized icons.

Non-commit-y is good too! And thank you!

I completely missed this last year and had to read most of the posts after the fact, so I'm glad to see it come back. That being said--I'm not so sure if I agree with #3. As a PoC, I think we should encourage anyone (of any race) who has recognized their own racism and taken steps to acknowledge and act against it to speak on that. This is, of cours in addition to broadening their perspective by reading and reflecting on other posts by PoCs. Anyway, I'm looking forward to posting and participating this time around :).

That being said--I'm not so sure if I agree with #3. As a PoC, I think we should encourage anyone (of any race) who has recognized their own racism and taken steps to acknowledge and act against it to speak on that. This is, of cours in addition to broadening their perspective by reading and reflecting on other posts by PoCs.

*nods* Yeah, very. My suggestions in 3 are my Not So Sekrit way of trying to get those people to post too, heh heh. Because yeah, I really do appreciate it when more people speak out, because it makes everyone that much less afraid to.

On the other hand, I had several friends who didn't feel like they should take voices away from POC last year, especially when there were a lot of posts with people going "Oh! I had a black friend in elementary! I know all about racism!" without even trying to go further. So I see where they're coming from, and I respect their decision, even though personally, I would make everyone post if I could ;).

And I didn't write down the corollary to 3, which is that I didn't want POC who are tired of the entire thing to feel pressured to post, especially since, y'know, we deal with it every freaking day and god knows that people need rest and to not have to deal.

So... I dunno. I think that was my very long winded way of saying that I agree with you, but I also don't want to disrespect choices that other people have made as well, if that makes any sense?

So are 'whites' allowed to do this, or not? I'm not familiar with the etiquette here.

I don't think there's anything saying they shouldn't? I was talking about some white friends of mine who decided that they didn't want to speak over POC voices and about respecting their decision.

If you can find a volunteer, it would probably be a good idea to get someone to round up posts about racism that have occurred in the interim between the two IBARW. Or posts that pre-date the IBARW.

If you find someone, I'll give them the links I've got. Oh, you may also want to hookup w/

witchwillow/

willow_dot_com's

ofcolor.

Yes! I've been madly collecting links in my delicious acct. and was planning to link to

rydra_wong's giant compilation of most race-in-fandom posts, as well as linking to carnivals like Erase Racism. But yeah, having someone actually do it systematically and stick it on whatever link collection method we've got going would be excellent!

(plus, it would make compiling a potential Anti-Racism 101 site that much easier)

Don't forget to check out http://del.icio.us/tag/meta%2Brace
and http://del.icio.us/tag/fandom%2Brace

Oh, awesome, thank you!

::is geared up and ready::

::she hopes::

Yay!

I hope you don't mind me dropping by here with a question, but I respect your opinions on race and racism, and recent discussions [1 (http://community.livejournal.com/lifeonmartha/268192.html), 2 (http://community.livejournal.com/lifeonmartha/259659.html), 3 (http://thete1.livejournal.com/628790.html)] have left me wondering about this.

I know absolutely nothing about the behind-the-scenes aspect of movies and tv, but what do you think actors of colour/minority actors do with roles and scenes they find offensive? Do they remain silent because they fear losing work? Do their opinions simply get ignored? Or do you think the end product actually *has* been improved after input from actors dealing with iffy material?

Some of the stuff we end up seeing is so glaringly *offensive* that surely someone on the creative end must have noticed, and said something. When fandom talks about race (or sexism or any other sort of prejudice), we usually talk vaguely about "the writers" or "[the show's creator]," but there are so many other people around them, and involved in the creation of a movie or tv show that surely *someone* must notice when the subtext is getting ugly.

Hmm. I'm sorry if I haven't phrased myself very coherently, but if you are willing to share your opinions, I would appreciate them very much.

I think it's a mistake to assume that actors of color are always aware of the messages being received by the audience, especially if the treatment of a single character isn't blatantly racially negative, but it's the shows global treatment of CoCs that is at issue. A lot of actors look at a TV show or movie very much from the viewpoint of their single character, and they may know little or nothing about the larger show, or the created world in which their show is set.

I think the best example of actor monofocus is what happened to Andromeda when Kevin Sorbo started exercising more creative control: in short, the stories completely re-centered around his character and the interesting and complex story continuity and ensuing moral questions were axed a lot.

There's also the X Files episodes written by David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson. DD's episodes were pretty coherent episodes, but they were only of the humorous quirky type, not the scary horror/thriller type. GA's episode didn't make sense, in terms of the larger universe or her character's progression in the series. It involved Scully getting re-involved in a personal relationship from college after a point where she had relinquished all personal relationships outside the FBI and her family, and it didn't have much in the way of an X factor.

Also, actors do sometimes influence storylines for racial reasons, but the way they influence those storylines may or may not strike other people as constructive. Eriq Lasalle (black man), who was on ER, got the producers to break his character up with the white woman he'd been dating, because he was sick of black characters so often ending up with white ones. That's his perspective because he's working on an ensemble drama — for me, who was watching a lot of buddy shows are smaller cast sf dramas, I found it really frustrating that the only time we'd see incidental, minor character CoCs, it would just so happen to be when a main cast CoC needed a date to the big dance or to be seduced by alien priestesses or what have you.

I do know that some minority actors just don't work as much as their talent would dictate. Angela Bassett (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000291/) should have a longer IMDB entry, for instance. So should Regina King (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005093/).

So, I suspect the answer is yes, to all of the things you asked, depending on the ability of the actor to express what is offensive and the actor's estimate of their influence on the whole of the production and the producer's estimate of the actor's influence.

I think it's a mistake to assume that actors of color are always aware of the messages being received by the audience, especially if the treatment of a single character isn't blatantly racially negative, but it's the shows global treatment of CoCs that is at issue. A lot of actors look at a TV show or movie very much from the viewpoint of their single character, and they may know little or nothing about the larger show, or the created world in which their show is set.

I think the best example of actor monofocus is what happened to Andromeda when Kevin Sorbo started exercising more creative control: in short, the stories completely re-centered around his character and the interesting and complex story continuity and ensuing moral questions were axed a lot.

There's also the X Files episodes written by David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson. DD's episodes were pretty coherent episodes, but they were only of the humorous quirky type, not the scary horror/thriller type. GA's episode didn't make sense, in terms of the larger universe or her character's progression in the series. It involved Scully getting re-involved in a personal relationship from college after a point where she had relinquished all personal relationships outside the FBI and her family, and it didn't have much in the way of an X factor.

Also, actors do sometimes influence storylines for racial reasons, but the way they influence those storylines may or may not strike other people as constructive. Eriq Lasalle (black man), who was on ER, got the producers to break his character up with the white woman he'd been dating, because he was sick of black characters so often ending up with white ones. That's his perspective because he's working on an ensemble drama — for me, who was watching a lot of buddy shows are smaller cast sf dramas, I found it really frustrating that the only time we'd see incidental, minor character CoCs, it would just so happen to be when a main cast CoC needed a date to the big dance or to be seduced by alien priestesses or what have you.

I do know that some minority actors just don't work as much as their talent would dictate. Angela Bassett (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000291/) should have a longer IMDB entry, for instance. So should Regina King (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005093/).

So, I suspect the answer is yes, to all of the scenarios you proposed + sometimes they don't have the perspective to see it, depending on the ability of the actor to express what is offensive and the actor's estimate of their influence on the whole of the production and the producer's estimate of the actor's influence.

And yet you answer so well as me! ;)

*heh* Thanks!

Thank you for taking the time to reply! I hope my question wasn't too ignorant, but I'm a white woman, and a pretty sheltered one at that. I'm trying not to blunder in on a sensitive topic in a way that's too insulting.

I think it's a mistake to assume that actors of color are always aware of the messages being received by the audience, especially if the treatment of a single character isn't blatantly racially negative, but it's the shows global treatment of CoCs that is at issue.

I'd wondered about that, too. I was curious as to whether it was harder to see racism from within a role; or if it were easier for a minority actor to recognize problems because racism is something they are more likely to have been exposed to than the (white, male) writer/director/etc. (in much the same way fandom sees absolutely nothing wrong with a scene until a POC steps up and says: "hey, that's not cool.")

I was curious as to whether it was harder to see racism from within a role; or if it were easier for a minority actor to recognize problems because racism is something they are more likely to have been exposed to than the (white, male) writer/director/etc.

Huh, I dunno! I guess it depends who they are and where they are with regards to their own relationship to race? I say this just because I know there was a period in my life in which I would have totally denied the racism in something I enjoyed, a lot because I didn't want to see myself as disempowered and because I had totally internalized the whole "Ooo, look at those self-segregating Asians" POV. Whereas now, I'd react very differently.

On the other hand, I do think on a whole there is more of an awareness with POC when skanky race things are going on b/c of the exposure you mention, so... I dunno.

I agree with pretty much everything

witchqueen wrote out. Also was just going to add that I don't know much about behind-the-scenes as well (

rachelmanija has better experience than me), but that I suspect the general paucity of actors of color also hovers around the issue like a... hovering thing. I'm guessing some stay silent because they don't want to be known as the person who rocks the boat, some do because it's already hard finding roles for POC, some speak but get ignored, some speak and get listened to (Masi Oka for Heroes, whoo!). But I suspect in general they have less clout than white actors, siiiigh.

Some of the stuff we end up seeing is so glaringly *offensive* that surely someone on the creative end must have noticed, and said something. When fandom talks about race (or sexism or any other sort of prejudice), we usually talk vaguely about "the writers" or "[the show's creator]," but there are so many other people around them, and involved in the creation of a movie or tv show that surely *someone* must notice when the subtext is getting ugly.

Hrm, yeah. I dunno. Speaking as someone who used to be the token "I am colorblind and therefore have all white friends" Asian back in college, I think a lot of it may be in the atmosphere? Certainly if you've heard your peers or superiors making fun of people for being "PC" or "overly sensitive," even (or possibly especially) casually or with toss-aside comments, and you see no one standing up to it, it makes it that much more difficult to say something. Or I'm wondering if people do protest, only to be pooh-poohed as "pulling the race card" or just being a poor sport or whatnot.

I found it really, really hard speaking out about it on LJ last year, and that was among a group of people who generally prided themselves as being liberal and feminist and subversive, because of a lot of the above factors, but that's more my guess about Hollywood atmosphere than actual knowledge.

Thank you for taking the time to reply!

I hadn't thought about how important the atmosphere must be, but it makes a lot of sense that it would help keep people in line.

I'm glad that you did speak up about race issues. I've seen some discussions get pretty vicious in lj fandom, but I appreciate the different perspective (even if I don't always like what I learn about my fandom or myself in the process).

Sure! ^_^

And it's such a little thing, but it's just so good to know that people are reading and thinking, as the vicious comments are easier to remember. It helps me balance things out. So thank you.

I know back in the day, sometimes actors were dreadfully unhappy with the parts they had but wanted to work, and sometimes felt they had no choice but to make the best of their roles-- IIRC Butterfly McQueen was dreadfully unhappy with and ashamed of her role in Gone With the Wind. On the flip side of that, Nat King Cole was well aware of his show's impact and worked very hard to show a black man in a positive way. (Heartbreakingly, the show got killer ratings and was ended due to lack of corporate sponsorship.) I wish I knew more about the industry now.

Do they remain silent because they fear losing work?

Sometimes.

Do their opinions simply get ignored?

Sometimes.

Or do you think the end product actually *has* been improved after input from actors dealing with iffy material?

Sometimes.

It all depends on the show, the amount of clout the actor has, and what kind of clues the people involved have.

I wanna write this year! Last year I was just kinda looking around but this year I wanna be a part of it!

That would be awesome! Join the fun! ;)

I can make icons. (linked over here from friendfriends)

That would be great! I think

witchqueen has got some text/slogan suggestions, though of course you're free to make whatever you like ^_^.

It's deeply ironic, given those suggestions, that this is one of the first icons I made. I'll try the other ideas too, though!

That's awesome!

Icons here. (http://lady-ganesh.livejournal.com/7245.html)

Dude! I love those! Must remember to steal some when I get back home.

Yay!

Thank you dear, it sounds like a fabulous project. What I would suggest is really promoting it outside of eljay. Journalfen, perhaps creating a dedicated community or blogger or wordpress, myspace etc. I found out about this from a friend of a friend of a friend and it was tough getting to this post.

Oh, um, yes, that would be a good idea, wouldn't it? ;)

Ah, the inherent problems of trying to get a campaign-thing going when you're too embarrassed to let other people know about it!

Embarrassed?! What for? It's a fabulous idea! I'd be happy to help with any promotions, perhaps create some banners or look at ways to get the word out. You guys had a lot of participation last year so I can only see it growing bigger. An official announcement in blackfolk wouldnt' hurt either ;)

Let me know fi you need anything!

Ooo! Anything you would be willing to do would be awesome! I will also try and think of more ideas to publicize or to ask other people to help. Thanks so much!

I'm a Jewish white person. I often feel ambivalent about how to participate in conversations about race, since "Jewish" isn't a race and I am white. OTOH, obviously, there's prejudice against Semitic peoples and Jews and Muslims all over the place.

Is it out of place for IBARW to post about the representation of Jews in the media and what to do when the stereotype fits your experience?

Um. That is a tough question. I am not sure if I'm the right person to respond to that. Actually, I'm very certain I'm not the right person! ;)

But since you ask, I will try and answer, although this is all just me. I have seen several cases in which people (not you) have derailed conversations by turning to the oppression of various white people, including but not limited to Jews and the Irish. And I am not saying that oppression against these groups did not exist, or that they are somehow less important or more important than racism, because I think that oppression is horrible.

That said, you seem to be fairly clear about that part already, given that you've taken the time to think about it and ask, which I really, really appreciate. And I do think oppressions intersect and that looking at those intersections is extremely important, and of course I can see how a post on stereotypes in media would fit in with IBARW (though I'm not equating stereotypes of different people in media).

In conclusion: I don't know. I would love to see your post, and I am happy to have people contributing to IBARW. But I think it is up to you and your own comfort level about these things, because if nothing else, the past few days have shown that it's not always fun talking about race and racism (even though I like it when people do it!).

I hope that helps somewhat? I'm sorry I don't have a good answer.

This is actually a very good answer. :) I'm going to take this to mean that I should do it if I feel I can do it in a way that contributes something to the discussion of how racism and oppression works without hijacking the conversation.

I think I can do that. But if I can't, I'll work on what I can say or how I can encourage discussion among white fans of the issues raised. Maybe a reading and discussion group on my blog. We've been chatting about writing racism - with respect to realistically writing interracial relationships - this week, and that's been very educational.

I will eventually write about prejudice against Jews and the prejudices some Jews carry around as well as internalized prejudice and the way things like "Never Again" operate as both sword and shield. I think it's important to talk about the ways that classism and prejudice intersect there, too. But IBARW might not be the time.

So, thank you for your answer, and I'll definitely participate and promote the events, one way or another!

I'm glad it helped! And I'm looking forward to reading your post(s); I know I have a huge amount to learn about Jews and the particular issues and oppressions and prejudices there, and I would love to read about it.

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Stupid white confused person question

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I am not <lj user=oyceter> and don't play her on tv, but

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