Cultural appropriation, pt. 2

[oyceter]

Or, in which I make myself extremely unpopular and get flamed through the roof.

I am limiting this to America because I live here now and because the majority of people who've been commenting seem to be from there. This isn't because I think America is most important (because I don't), but because I need to limit the scope of this somehow. I apologize to those living elsewhere, and I really want to make a more global post about this later, unless people are absolutely sick of me going on and on and on about this.

1. There has been much discussion of cultural authenticity and the problems of cultural authenticity in the comments of my previous post, yhlee's post, cofax7's post, and rilina's post. I feel conflicted about this -- discussion of cultural authenticity is by necessity related to cultural appropriation, but I am very uneasy as to how it has somewhat usurped the discussion of appropriation. This uneasiness is further cemented by the fact that a lot of discussion of cultural authenticity has to do with minority cultures adopting the dominant culture, or questions along the line of "If I can only write about my own culture/race/ethnicity without cultural appropriation, what can I write about?" And from the comments, it does seem like a majority of the people asking these questions are from European/American descent. I am not finger pointing, I swear. I know that's a horribly passive-aggressive way to say it, but I really don't want to call people out because I think it's unproductive, and because I am reading through all four threads and trying to suss out common themes.
   
   Which leads to...


2. Even if there is no such thing as cultural authenticity, the question of cultural appropriation is still present. Furthermore, I am not saying that you can only write about what culture/race/ethnicity that you belong to. Instead, I am saying that the problems inherent in cultural appropriation exist and will very likely exist for many, many decades to come. Also, the very act of writing about another culture, particularly one in which you are a part of the dominant culture that has a history of subjugating minority cultures, that very act is problematic.
   
   It is even more problematic when you look at means of colonization in the past and how much of colonization involves language and schooling and learning the mythos and culture of the colonizers.
   
   This is not limited to white American and/or European culture (see: Japanese culture with regard to Korean culture), but because white American and/or European culture was so often the colonizer in the past few centuries, I think deflecting the issue back to minority cultures avoids the larger issue.
   
   Does this suck? Yes.
   
   Is this fair? No.
   
   Does this mean you shouldn't write about it? No.
   
   Does this mean you have to think about it? No. Feel free to ignore it if you want.
   
   But even if you think you're writing in a vacuum, your readers are not reading in a vacuum. People read in historical context. I read Naomi Novik's Throne of Jade as a third culture kid with the (slight) knowledge of Qing Dynasty China and what happened to Qing Dynasty China, and even if Novik wrote without that in mind (which I don't think she did), that still doesn't make my reading experience any different.


3. And because rilina says it better than me and because I think it bears repeating many times:
   
   "It's very hard for a minority culture to "coopt" something from a dominant culture. I'm sorry if this doesn't seem fair to dominant culture folks (and I'm not saying it's impossible), but I think this is true. When cultural things flow in that direction, it's usually less appropriation and more assimilation." [emphasis in the original]


4. Unpopular thought about assimilation: I think if you are a hyphenated American or an American of color, claiming American culture as your own is problematic. I wish this weren't so, and I struggled against this in college. But the fact is, if your skin color is different from that of people around you, no matter what you think you are, people will very often treat you differently. They may be well-meaning and be very cautious about the subject of race, or they could just say incredibly stupid things, but the issue of race is always there.
   
   We aren't at the point where things are colorblind, and as such, cultural assimilation is problematic. No, I don't think this is fair, and yes, I think it is limiting, particularly when you don't want to feel different and are made to feel different. But again, sadly, things don't exist in a vacuum.


5. As an addendum to this: no, it isn't fair that minority authors are often corralled into minority fiction and said to write about the minority experience. On the other hand, since so few other people are writing about the minority experience, it's a lose-lose situation. I do think that limiting minority authors to the minority experience is very much like limiting female authors to the female experience, but... BUT! seeing the minority experience as a limiting factor can very much be as denigrating as the whole "OMG women writing about female things, the horror!"


6. Of course, if you look like the dominant culture but aren't from that culture, the issues are very different. But since there is much discussion about hyphenated Americans in the other comment threads, I would very much like to leave it out of this particular post and the comments to this post.


7. And now, look, even this post has become about minorities writing about minorities and not about dominant cultures writing about minorities and the inherent problems therein.
   
   I'm sorry, I'm really angry about this, and like rilina says, I think many of the issues here are like feminist issues, in which all discussions seem to go back to the men and femininsts must continue to argue why feminism is still relevant. I know this is a horribly uncomfortable topic, probably more so than feminism on LJ, because most of the people I know on LJ are female, whereas most of the people I know on LJ are not minorities in terms of skin color.
   
   I am highlighting this not because I want to call out people, but because I think discussion of cultural appropriation keeps skirting around this fact. I am highlighting skin color because despite what I'd like the world to be like, it is still a very important factor and one that can divide people at first glance.


8. In conclusion, no one is ever going to tell you that cultural appropriation is ok or that there is a way for a dominant culture to write about a minority culture without these problems rising up. If they do say that, I'm sorry, they're lying or they're from the far future, in which there is no race disparity, no racism, and all nations are on equal economic, political and cultural standing.
   
   This does not mean you shouldn't write about it. Nor does it mean you should write about it. I mean, I personally wish everyone would write about it, or include minority characters, or do something to change things so that the default of a character is not white male. But in the end, it means that even though you may think you're writing in a vacuum, you aren't, and, more importantly, no one is reading in a vacuum. So no matter how you think you should deal with this issue or disengage from it, writing another Euro-centric fantasy is still contributing to the mass of Euro-centric, non-ethnic fantasies out there, and writing a non-Euro-centric fantasy will by necessity run up against these issues.
   
   I wish there were an easier way, but I don't think there is.

Also, does anyone know about critical theory regarding race like Joanna Russ' How to Suppress Women's Writing?

Ok, um, flame away.

ETA: yhlee responds

ETA 2: Most recent link round up that I know of

Also, I am going to answer comments. I just need time to think and time to stop being overwhelmed.

ETA 3: ladyjax on discourse on race

Comments

[stegoking.livejournal.com]

I'd like to preface this with commentary with the simple idea that until we start seeing people as people and not just the color of their skin, flavor of their religion, cut of their jib, etc., then we can never hope to end what appears to be the liberal version of blatant racism. Asian? You're a human being. Muslim? Human too. We try so hard to *appreciate* the differences we forget that in most ways we're all alike -- stupid, self-important, and worthy.

Now that's I've prefaced this with idealism, let me explain that there is no such thing as White America. We have Catholics and Jews, Mormons and Scientologists. We have southerners and northerners -- and if you don't think the culture to be entirely different, then you've never been to both. I grew up as an Irish Jew in Boston, and my culture was so different from the Italians that also lived in the neighborhoods that there were literally race riots in my high school. Between 'whites' and 'whites.' Have you ever met someone who is well and truly rich? Their lifestyle is so different from mine that I can't comprehend their manner of thought. New Jersey is so different from Seattle that the culture shock from one to the other is incredible. The same from South Carolina to Texas to Chicago to San Francisco to San Diego. There is no white culture, and 'white' is not a race. Or if you deem it a race, then you must understand that there are a million and one ethnicities and cultures that make it up. Real life is not the movies of television. American Pop Culture is just as absurd to me as a white American man, as it is to anyone, anywhere. To somehow lump me in with the same race that houses skinheads who hate me for my ethnicity and refuse to acknowledge me as white is absurd. It's all absurd. It's bloody exasperating. Complaining that so-called 'white culture' does not respect 'your' culture is the pot calling the kettle black.

But I digress. Refer back to my first paragraph.

[shati.livejournal.com]

Hi there. From your comment I'm guessing you haven't gotten the full context of this discussion, so rilina's list (http://rilina.livejournal.com/314663.html) of links might be helpful. I don't see oyceter arguing that mainstream American culture is not diverse; she only asked that we focus on a different topic in this space, since discussions of the diversity of whiteness have overshadowed this topic elsewhere. Her post discusses the issue of minority cultures being represented in fiction by writers from dominant cultures.

Complaining that so-called 'white culture' does not respect 'your' culture is the pot calling the kettle black.

Luckily, she neither says nor implies this. :)

I apologize if I've misunderstood your comment. And Oyce, I am sorry to butt in and speak for you without asking (and, um, particularly sorry if I've misrepresented what you were saying) -- I wasn't sure how to ask, and if you'd like me to stop I will.

[oyceter]

No, not at all, and thank you.

[oyceter]

I'd like to preface this with commentary with the simple idea that until we start seeing people as people and not just the color of their skin, flavor of their religion, cut of their jib, etc., then we can never hope to end what appears to be the liberal version of blatant racism.

I think, in an ideal world, seeing people as people and not as the color of their skin would work. Unfortunately, because not everyone sees me as people and not as Asian, I don't know if this works. And so, to just say that there is no color or race skips over the issue that society's preoccupation with color and race over the years has created an environment in which things are not yet fair and balanced like they should be.

I'm also not arguing that white people are the same. On the contrary, there's a ton of discussion going on about it in other posts and on the diversity of experience and the continual mixing of cultures. But because that discussion is taking place on other posts, I wanted to leave room in this post to not discuss it.

I'd also argue that while America is composed of many people of different colors, ethnicities, sexual orientations, religions, and classes, the face that America presents via pop culture, politics, and economics (in who tends to have more economic power in America) is white. It may be Jewish or Irish or Italian or Catholic or Buddhist, but that's the color I keep seeing. There are minorities out there, but not to the same extent that there are white faces.

Basically, when it gets to the point that seeing other Asian faces on TV and in the news is the norm and when people are talking as much about Asian people (substitute your minority of choice), that's when I'll say yes, we can start seeing people as people, because that's when we'll be treating people like people.

[stegoking.livejournal.com]

"It may be Jewish or Irish or Italian or Catholic or Buddhist, but that's the color I keep seeing."

Is this any different than people not being able to tell the difference between the Chinese and the Japanese? It's pretty silly to me. As a Jew, is my ancestry any less Asian than yours?

[queenofhell.livejournal.com]

I think the problem stegoking, as well as many others in this thread are having, is with your definition of American culture as "looking white". (Quote: I would define dominant culture in the US as anyone who looks like they're of European (Eastern Europe included) descent with fairly light colored skin.)

But the thing is, as a white non-religious California girl, if I write a story about someone who's Mormon or Jewish or, hell, from Texas, I'm culturally appropriating just as much as I would be if I wrote a story about someone who's another ethnicity, because in none of those cases would I be writing about my culture. And white-looking or not, Mormons and Jews are minority cultures in America which are not represented much in American pop culture or politics.

I mean, I think everyone can agree that white privelage is built into the culture, and that issues of representation within culture (pop culture, politics, economics, etc.) are divided across racial lines. But I think whats happening in this thread, and why people keep dragging the discussion back to white diversity (and yes, I realize that I'm part of the problem, and I do apologize for that, since I'm sure you're sick of the topic) is that you're linking "culture is how you look and how you're treated on the street" with cultural appropriation and representation in fiction.

Which, yes? I mean, there is a connection. But then again, people from minority cultures who are white often feel that their culture is misrepresented or under-represented within the dominant culture (to follow through on my earlier example, stereotypes about how all Mormons are polygamists and Jews are obsessed with money). That, I think, is what people are trying to say when they talk about the diversity of American culture. You seem to be saying "American culture represents you, the white American", while the people commenting here are saying, "But no, American culture isn't representing me." Because when you're talking about cultural appropriation, you're not just talking about how people look. You're talking about history, religion, food, customs, myths, clothing, etc., (the oft-quoted example of Firefly's appropriation of Chinese clothing, language, etc. despite a lack of Chinese characters).

People's cultural heritage is important to them--their language, customs, religion, etc.--and so for you to say that dominant culture = white, thus white = represented by dominant culture makes it seem like you're diminishing other aspects of people's culture that are equally as important to them as their skin color. I'm sure that wasn't your intent, and I know that this isn't really the issue you're discussing. I'm just saying, I think thats why people keep bringing up the point of diversity withi the white community. You keep sending them to other posts to discuss cultural authenticity, but I don't think thats what its about. I think its about people saying that their skin color is not the only aspect of their culture.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I mean, I think everyone can agree that white privelage is built into the culture, and that issues of representation within culture (pop culture, politics, economics, etc.) are divided across racial lines. But I think whats happening in this thread, and why people keep dragging the discussion back to white diversity (and yes, I realize that I'm part of the problem, and I do apologize for that, since I'm sure you're sick of the topic) is that you're linking "culture is how you look and how you're treated on the street" with cultural appropriation and representation in fiction.

It's really great that people can recognize that white privilege is a problem, but it would be nice if you and other commenters could stop demonstrating it.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

That was excellent.

Actually it is fascinating how so many posts take offence at the idea of being categorized by merely one aspect of themselves, and one aspect that they'd never given much thought to, their skin colour. Um... people think about it. And then enjoy possibly the world's least stressful glimpse into what visible minorities have to deal with.

[queenofhell.livejournal.com]

Do I think white privelage has something to do with the "white people are diverse, too!" posts? Yes, including mine. But I think a larger part is that oyceter's definition of culture is extremely reductive, and people feel hurt when you say that important elements of their life don't matter. Thats all I was trying to say in my post, and I don't think you can brush that off by just saying, "oh, white privelage". I think people have a visceral response when they feel that their culture is being devalued--look at all the Republicans saying "the queers/liberals/feminists are trying to destroy our beliefs and way of life". Look at all the accusations of "a liberal media" and all the cries that Hollywood and New York are "out of touch" with the true culture of America. They're talking about elements of culture that they feel are being looked down on by other white people.

I'm viewing "cultural representation" and "privelage" for the purposes of this discussion as two different things--related, yes, but different. Are white people and people of color treated differently and afforded different privelages? Yes. Are all white people culturally represented because the face of American TV and politics is white? No.

Look at what oyceter said in her original post: It is even more problematic when you look at means of colonization in the past and how much of colonization involves language and schooling and learning the mythos and culture of the colonizers. Language, mythos, culture. Not just the European standard of beauty. Not just "look like white people", because that is not the only element of culture. Particularly when we're talking about cultural appropriation, that doesn't just include characters who look/are Asian/Mexican/black, etc., we're also talking about elements of culture such as historical context, language, customs, mythos, etc. oyceter (or possibly someone else in the discussion) used the example of Native American and Asian creation myths being used in sci-fi novels with predominatly white characters, written by white writers. In that case, it is not about "looking white" or "not looking white", its about appropriating elements of culture.

What I'm trying to say is that a definition of culture as "looking a certain way" is so broad and reductive as to be entirely useless as a basis of discussion. If we're using "looking white" as a definition in a discussion about white privelage and how people are treated, it works. If we're using "looking white" as a definition of culture in a discussion about cultural appropriation", it doesn't work.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I know this. Oyce knows this. If you'd looked at Oyce's previous posts, you'd know she knows this.

And yes, I think that when someone explicitly and politely asks for a space to discuss minority representation and gets slammed with 50 comments talking about diversity among white people, it's still an expression of white people refusing to acknowledge white privilege.